← World is GodHis autobiography, book three

CHAPTER IV

Switzerland (contd.)

Difference between Jesus and other Saints

ONE day, Jean Herbert proposed that we should go to a monastery at Broc, in Switzerland, to meet Father Dom Barras, a prominent abbot. This idea was suggested to him by Father Conus who had met and talked with Ramdas earlier at Jean Herbert’s place. The Father was quite open-minded and appreciated what Ramdas said in regard to the universal nature of spiritual experiences. The following account of a portion of the talks indicate the nature of the questions on which the conversations took place:

Father: Is absolute purity possible on the physical plane?

Ramdas: Yes. It is possible when the mind is completely absorbed in God through constant remembrance and meditation, which takes one away from all lower desires to the static, changeless and formless aspect of God. By complete withdrawal of oneself from the plane of the body, mind and senses and their contact with the external world, one gets into a trance-like state which is called Nirvikalpa Samadhi. After one has experienced this Samadhi, one’s desires are all destroyed. He now sees the whole universe as the manifestation of Truth that he has realized during Nirvikalpa Samadhi.

Father: People say the whole of nature is the manifestation of God, but they also admit that they have not experienced the static aspect of Truth. Is this possible?

Ramdas: No. Unless one experiences the static aspect first, one cannot see the world as the manifestation of Truth.

Father: Then they must be talking things only in a state of emotion.

Ramdas: Yes.

Jean Herbert: Father Conus is very happy that your experiences tally entirely with those of St. John of the Cross who was a great mystic. This is the great compliment he can give you.

Father: Jesus has been accepted as God. What difference is there between Jesus and other saints?

Ramdas: It is like the water in a well and that in a river in floods. The water in a well is made use of by only a few people of a locality, whereas the river water in floods reaches a vaster area and caters to a large number of people. Saints are like well water and incarnations such as Jesus are like a river in floods.

Father: So the difference is only in quantity?

Ramdas: Yes. It is quantitative and not qualitative.

Visit to a Monastery

In pursuance of the suggestion above referred to, we started along with Jean Herbert and Father Conus one fine morning to the monastery, which was about 150 miles from Geneva. While passing through the country-side we cursorily witnessed the life of the agricultural classes who were busy in their work in vineyards, fields and meadows. Their simple, rustic life of hard labour amidst the abundance of nature’s gifts was a most pleasing and elevating sight. The open bright spaces along the hilly slopes covered with extensive vineyards, the plants arranged in regular rows forming picturesque designs on both sides added to our zest in the excursion as our cars sped along the smooth metalled road to the destination. At last, after driving through many villages which had their churches, farms and cottages built in a fashion not familiar to Indians, we reached the gates of the abbey.

From outside we saw the monastery consisted of a number of houses where the novices lived alone undergoing rigorous discipline. The rules of the institution, as we learnt later, were very strict. The abbot, a stoutly built person with a spiritual lustre on his face welcomed us with love and hospitality. He took us into a room at the entrance where we had our lunch. Then the abbot, along with his assistants and Father Conus, had a conversation with Ramdas on ‘Grace’. They listened to Ramdas with rapt attention and expressed their satisfaction that what Ramdas spoke tallied exactly with the writings of Roman Catholic saints. Ramdas felt supremely happy in their company. He may here give briefly some points touched upon in the course of the talk:

Abbot: I would like to know from your experience if it is possible to be free from all passions, and if so, how.

Ramdas: It is perfectly possible to be free from passions. How it is possible, Ramdas shall explain. When, by the grace of God, you remember Him constantly, without break, your mind becomes absolutely pure and free from all passions. The mind is then like that of a child, guileless and innocent. It will never be contaminated by contact with external objects when the light of God enters into all parts of your being, both mental and physical. This is the absolute purity which you attain through the grace of God. What discipline you undergo is done by God’s will alone, and not by your will or initiative.

Abbot: This agrees totally with what we believe. I would like to ask another question. If a man makes serious efforts to purify himself, will he take a long time to attain the purification?

Ramdas: Not only that. If he struggles to discipline himself to attain purification by his own will, without inviting divine grace to help him, his struggle will be in vain, however long it may be. In the ultimate state, when God’s grace fully illumines him, he lives always in the presence of God and no unholy thought can ever enter his mind. Ramdas can say that, when God’s grace has completely transformed him, he remains naturally pure, without any discipline. God-thought having been stamped in his mind, thereafter he will never be enveloped by darkness and be subject to the desires born of it.

Abbot: Does that mean that after a man has reached a certain stage, he is liable to fall again? In the Christian doctrine it is said there is always a danger of one forgetting grace and glorifying the ego.

Ramdas: Ramdas anticipated this question. When you have surrendered yourself to God, and, by His grace, you have become entirely His, you feel secure under His protection, and He assures you that He will never allow you to fall. God, in all His mercy, will protect you at every turn of your life. If there are temptations, He will see that you do not fall into them. His protective power is so great that there is no likelihood of a fall if you have handed yourself over to Him, made Him your all in all, your sole refuge. God protects you as a mother protects the child.

Abbot: Are there any cases where saints have fallen and risen again? We have known Christian saints who had fallen.

Ramdas: Saints are God-realized persons, and so they can have no fall. But those who have reached only a certain stage and not attained full realization of the Divine and who have not completely surrendered to His will are likely to fall. This does not mean that God withdraws His grace from such a person, but the latter withdraws himself from the grace. Grace is ever pouring on all of us. But we must be fully conscious of it. Sometimes we are so conscious and receive the grace, but, at other times, certain conditions prevent us from accepting the grace and as a result we fall.

The abbot then took us into the interior of the monastery and showed us round. According to their rules no ladies could be admitted inside. So only Jean Herbert, Sagarlal, Satchidananda and Ramdas went in. Mother Krishnabai and Rani Lalita Devi remained in the room where we had lunch. The abbot showed us the chapels and rooms where the novices had their spiritual practices. At one chapel we knelt down to worship at the shrine of Lord Jesus on the Cross. The few moments we spent in silent prayer were most precious in that they filled us all with the pure light and peace of God. The visit to the monastery confirmed Ramdas in his view that, though their paths may vary, the seekers in all religions are, after all, aspiring to reach the same goal of supreme peace and liberation. Before we left the monastery we all met outside near our cars. The flushed and radiant face of the abbot reflected the deep peace of his heart. And Ramdas too was in a state of unusual ecstasy. The leave-taking was touching. We then motored back to Jean Herbert’s beautiful villa in Geneva.

“Matru Devo Bhava”

One day a Russian engineer friend, M. Mironoff, took us to his factory in the city where various kinds of machines are made. He was a sincere spiritual seeker and attended the meetings in Jean Herbert’s library. He led us first to his office room where he and his colleagues were busily engaged in fitting up a newly invented machine. Then we went round to the big factory where hundreds of machines were automatically working for the production of various parts of machinery. It was not the factory that impressed Ramdas so much as the love and devotion of the friend who showed us round. He has remained a bachelor although he is in his forties. His sole ambition in life is to serve his old mother about whom he talked to us with deep feeling. He counts her service as nothing short of worship of God. One day he had the joy of bringing his mother to Jean Herbert’s place to see Ramdas who had a few words with her. She is a simple, devout and trustful soul.

Ramdas cannot close this chapter without making mention of a sculptor friend, M. Henri Pressot, who also attended the daily meetings at Jean Herbert’s place. He has developed a new technique of sculpture which is greatly admired these days in several parts of Europe and America. He took us to his studio to show us his work. He was a simple and good-natured young bachelor who also was serving his old mother with great care and tenderness. It is real joy to meet people faithfully serving their old parents who brought them up with all love and care. In the Upanishads we read:

Matrudevobhava Pitrudevobhava | Acharyadevobhava Atithidevobhava ||

[Let your mother be God to you. Let your father be God to you. Let your spiritual preceptor be God to you. Let your guest be God to you.]

Thus we see that the first honour and adoration of our heart must go to the mother, then to the father, then to the Guru who liberates us from the bondage of ignorance and grants us the knowledge of the eternal, and lastly to the uninvited guests. In fact, before we can be fit to receive the grace of the Guru, we have to purify ourselves by the loving service rendered to our parents.

Another day, Srimati Savitaben, the daughter of our friend Sri Nanji Kalidas Mehta of Porbandar, took us in her car to her flat in Geneva where we were treated to light refreshments. She was all kindness and love to Ramdas and party.

Work Goes with Prayer

Ramdas has also to mention here about the visit of a simple, guileless and hard working couple from a distant place. They had heard of us and were eager to meet us. They came in an evening, sat with us and participated in the vegetarian fare in our company. They wanted to know whether a life of honest labour was not compatible with devotion to God. Ramdas assured them that true life consisted in combining prayer and work. When our heart is with God and our hands are at work, we are really God’s chosen ones. Now, He showers His grace on us and grants us inner light, peace and joy. Verily, God is the deity of our heart which is His dwelling place.

Among those who came to stay with us for some days, there were two or three who were extremely devout and were silently helping in the kitchen and other places. One of them Mlle. Tony Fleury, was a gem of a spiritual seeker. Her face was calm and serene and she was moving about fully inebriated with the bliss of divine communion. Then there was Mlle. Denise Navarre, a girl who came from Belgium. She was also an ardent devotee, always present at the meetings, imbibing what she could from the talks that we had on spiritual subjects. A couple, Mr. and Mrs. Coulon, also from Belgium, used to attend the gatherings. Another couple from the same country, Mr. and Mrs. Haesaerts, who came to see us, invited us to Brussels, before they departed. Miss Diana Mathot from France, who has been long known to us, as she had come to our Ashram some years ago, also paid us a visit. Before she left she expressed a keen desire that we should stay at her house during our visit to Paris, and we agreed.

“What a Fine Message!”

One evening when Ramdas was, as usual, sitting in the library, a lady entered accompanied by Jean Herbert who introduced her to Ramdas as the Queen of Italy. She was tall, stately and dignified in her appearance. She was offered a seat near Ramdas. Although, as we were told, she had passed through many severe ordeals, her face showed calmness, resignation and serenity. She held a tiny book in her hand. She said, “I am having this book always with me. This is the book of your sayings translated into French. My aunt had it and! took it from her. It is so inspiring.”

She suggested that we should have a few minutes’ silent meditation and we had it. When it was over, she asked, “What is your message for me?”

Ramdas replied, “God is within your heart and you are His embodiment.”

Queen: What a fine message!

Ramdas: We are all the embodiments of Divinity. Our true nature is pure bliss and peace. To be conscious of this means to be always happy and peaceful.

Queen: I am so happy to have met you.

She took leave of Ramdas and saw also Mataji before she left.

The Miracle Happened

Among the visitors there was a lady, who used to come with her children, and with great concentration listen to Ramdas’ talks. Whenever Ramdas saw her sitting in the gathering he found that her face was suffused with a strange light and ecstasy. At other times, she was all smiles which revealed the joy she inwardly experienced. After the first meeting, she came to Ramdas in his private room and confided to him her sorrows. While she was an ardent devotee of God, her husband was not. He was expressing his emphatic protest against his wife’s visit to saints or spiritually advanced souls for her spiritual elevation. She prayed that Ramdas should bless her husband and turn his mind towards God. As she said this, her eyes were filled with tears and her body shook with uncontrollable emotion.

One day, she was able to persuade her husband to come with her for the meeting. That evening, after her husband left, she came to Ramdas and confessed that her husband was far from being impressed by Ramdas’ talks. Ramdas found her utterly miserable. But she was brave and full of faith. She made another attempt and brought her husband to the next day’s meeting also. He put to Ramdas this time a few questions. From his attitude Ramdas could make out that he was not satisfied with Ramdas’ answers. At the close of the meeting, however, the miracle happened. Before he left with his wife, he was a changed man. He came with his wife to our private room and said that his struggle had ceased and he had found peace, as a result of the unseen power coming from Ramdas that influenced him and brought about a total transformation in his life. Thereafter, he became one of us. The joy of his wife knew no bounds. All glory to God and His Name!

Sufi Devotees

Ramdas must say here a few words about the Sufi friends who used to regularly attend the meetings. They were the disciples of a great Sufi saint, Monsieur F. Schuon. All of them were votaries of the Divine Name. Whenever Ramdas spoke extolling God’s name, they used to listen to him with manifest delight. After the meetings they would invariably see Ramdas in his sitting room and express their gratitude for the peace they enjoyed when they were in his company. Their faces were bright and cheerful. They were kindly and meek in their behaviour. Truly, the Divine Name and self-surrender are the two main factors that contribute towards the fullness of spiritual experience of one who is utterly devoted to God. Such are the true lovers of God, and they are really blessed beyond measure.

“Simply Enviable!”

During our stay with them Jean Herbert and his sprightly wife were all love and hospitality to us. Their home looked like an Indian home in every respect. Prasanna often used to tell Ramdas that our fourteen days with them were far too short. On hearing Ramdas’ talks Jean Herbert used to be supremely happy. After the day’s programme was over, he would come to Ramdas in his private room and give him a warm embrace whenever he was highly elated. One day, as usual, he came to Ramdas after the talks and said, “Swamiji, your talks this afternoon were simply fine! The Sufi friends who came to hear you were greatly moved when you said that you have come here not to convert others to your faith, but only to push everybody forward on his or her own spiritual path of whatever faith, creed or sect they be, and that you are here not to establish a new cult.”

Ramdas jokingly asked him, “What do you think of Ramdas’ state?”

He replied, “Your state? Simply enviable!”

One day, Jean Herbert and his wife took us to their worship room upstairs where they prayed and meditated. We stood there for a while before an artistic table on which we saw images of God Ganesha and other deities. The room had a serene atmosphere. Besides being an ardent devotee of God, Jean Herbert is a man of aesthetic tastes. Both he and Prasanna are of the same temperament—deeply spiritual, free and cheerful. Jean Herbert is a scholar and linguist. He knows several European languages. Ramdas understands he is also well versed in Sanskrit. He has translated into French many Sanskrit works. He has also done researches in the field of different religions and cultures—especially of India. He has brought out some original books on them. His greatest asset is a genial and kindly nature.

Frequently, we would go out in the evenings for walks along the smooth and clean roads on both sides of which were tall oak and other trees that gave a cool shade to the pedestrians. Drinking in the fresh, and bracing air, we would quietly walk in these sequestered parts. Often we were joined by other friends who came to the meetings. The serenity, greenness and charm of the sylvan scenes we witnessed raised our spirits, and we moved about like care-free children. Verily, we are all children of the one universal Divine Mother!

Few or none among the visitors who came to see Ramdas knew English. So while he talked in English, Jean Herbert or Prasanna, who were both expert interpreters, used to translate the talks into French. Thus the language difficulty which confronted Ramdas was easily overcome.

Portions of Ramdas’ talks with friends at the meetings in Jean Herbert’s library during our fourteen days’ stay in Geneva are given below:

Ramdas (to some visitors who entered the room): Sit down, please. You might find it difficult to sit on the floor in that posture. We have come here from a long distance to talk to you about God. Do you all understand English?

A Visitor: My friend does not know English. I have read your book “In Quest of God”. I understand English. This lady wants to know if she could ask a question.

Ramdas: Yes.

Q: How to achieve all that you have mentioned in that book.

Work of Grace

Ramdas: The simple answer to this question, so far as Ramdas is concerned, is that it all happened by God’s grace. God’s grace came to him and transformed him and that alone produced the miracle. Our effort is useless. His grace must come to us. Then things happen as they should happen for our uplift and ultimate illumination and realization. It is not achieved by our merit. We can turn our mind towards God only if and when He wills.

Q: Is there any great difference between receiving the name of God from a Guru and taking it from a book by ourselves?

Ramdas: There is a great difference, indeed. When you get the Name from your Guru, the effect of it on the mind is marvellous. Guru infuses into the Name, when he gives it, his own spiritual power. In other words, he transmits his power through the Mantra to the disciple.

Two Ways

Q: Which is the quickest way to attain the goal?

Ramdas: There are two ways. One is to expand your ego to infinity, and the other is to reduce it to nothing, the former by knowledge, and the latter by devotion. The Jnani says, “I am God—the Universal Truth.” The devotee says, “I am nothing, O God, You are everything.” In both cases the ego-sense disappears. The safer and surer way is to take refuge in God and be ever under His grace and protection.

Q: As you say, when the whole world is the Lila of God, should we ignore the Lila, or should we take part in it? Should we resist and try to abstain, or should we be tools of that Lila?

Ramdas: We have to play, each one, a part allotted to us by Him who is the Master of the play. He is within us and He is responsible for this Lila. If we are aware of Him, within us, we play our part well. If we forget Him, we play our part ill. While in the former case we reap happiness, in the latter we reap misery or unhappiness.

Q: If it is God that acts in me, whatever I do must be all right, even the crucifixion of Christ.

Ramdas: If you are conscious that God is acting through you, you will never do any wrong. You do wrong only when you forget God. Hence, when the light of God within you guides you, you will always be walking on the path of truth and goodness and be incapable of doing anything unrighteous.

Q: Do you consider that thoughts such as love of beauty are necessary for spiritual progress?

Ramdas: Love of beauty does not mean merely love of the beauty of external appearance. It is love of goodness and virtue in a person’s nature. Is it not so? We love Buddha, Krishna and Christ, because of their glorious and beautiful qualities. They were at once beautiful in person and spirit, at heart and in all their actions. Because of this, we adore them and as a result we rise beyond our lower nature and attain perfect purity, enlightenment and bliss.

How to Love God

Q: Please tell us how to love God.

Ramdas: Truly speaking, it is not that we have to love God, but it is to know that God who is Love is seated in our hearts. By surrendering ourselves to this great love in us, we become embodiments of that love. By constant remembrance and meditation, as we realize His presence within us, our life becomes pure and illumined with His light and love. Then, love radiates through us and we see with love, talk with love, give with love, receive with love, walk and act in all manner of ways with nothing but love. We become the very images of love.

Q: Do you say Guru is God?

Ramdas: The meaning of the word “Guru” is “dispeller of darkness” or “giver of light”. Guru is the embodiment of God on earth to liberate souls from darkness and bring them light. Guru is an awakener and a saviour.

Q: How can a European best try to fulfil the conditions necessary for the Japa-yoga in the midst of the confused life and activity in Europe?

Ramdas: If we depend upon God, everything is possible. The conditions prevailing in Europe are more or less the same as those prevailing in other parts of the world so far as spiritual life is concerned. It is not any external conditions that deter us from trying to realize God but our own mind.

Worship God in Your Heart

Q: Swami, I never believed in God or religion before. But now I do believe. As I belonged to no church or religion, I cannot go to any church now.

Ramdas: It is not necessary that one should go to church if one is not in a position to do so. God is seated in your heart. Worship Him there. When you find Him within your heart and everywhere, you will realize that the whole universe is His manifestation, and whatever you do is His worship and His service.

Q: God has to meet the wishes of all?

Ramdas: The changing mind of man cannot be permanently satisfied with any material thing. What he likes at one time he does not like at another. What he wants now he does not want the next time. The only way for a man to be always happy is to submit to God’s will and, leaving everything to Him, be contented in the condition He places him. By changing circumstances, we cannot get real happiness.

Q: That means our internal attitude is to be changed.

Ramdas: That is precisely what is necessary. Externally, all things happen as He wills. Submission to Him is the only course. Surrender means inner contentment and peace.

Q: Should we pray to God?

Ramdas: Yes, we have to pray, all of us. Prayer is the only way by which we can keep contact with God, opening a channel between ourselves and Him. Prayer is the means to make His power, light, glory and purity flow into us.

The Most Important Thing

Q: What is the most important thing on the God-ward path?

Ramdas: Ramdas shall tell you about the path that leads the soul to God. The first thing necessary is grace. It is grace that makes us long for God. Longing for God develops into constant remembrance of Him and the constant remembrance of Him gives us the vision of Him, the experience of Him. This experience brings us whole-hearted love for Him and this love enables us to behold Him—our Beloved—everywhere, inside and out. This is the final stage wherein the soul reaches the goal and finds complete peace, bliss and freedom.

Q: Is there any difference between Buddha-consciousness and Christ-consciousness?

Ramdas: Ramdas for one does not see any difference between the two except in the names. One is called Buddha-consciousness and the other is called Christ-consciousness. Buddha and Christ are great personages who came to teach mankind how to reach that Consciousness which is the same in the experience of both.

Q: Can dogmas be considered as opposites of true spirituality? I mean rituals, ceremonies and doctrines.

Ramdas: If they are helpful in our attaining spirituality, let them be observed. If they are not, let them be given up. Everything enjoined upon by the scriptures may be done provided they lead us towards God, make our life pure, so that God’s light may reflect in us, be revealed in us. Let our struggle not be a show. We must be tremendously earnest at heart.

Q: Can we say that soul had a beginning and it was created by God or did it ever exist?

Ramdas: Soul is God; that means it is ever existent and never born.

Saints and Avatars

Q: What is the difference between those who realize God and God who descends in the world as incarnation?

Ramdas: Men struggle on the path of God-realization starting from their ignorant stage and become saints on attaining God, whereas God who takes a human form as an Avatar is not caught up at all in ignorance and has therefore no struggle to attain knowledge.

Q: When we love some people, should it be with the desire that they should change, or should it be without any desire at all?

Ramdas: We must give them love for love’s sake.

Q: There was a Catholic saint who rebuked God whenever he was led to do something bad, and put the whole blame on Him.

Ramdas: That shows how great is his love for God and dependence on Him. In the first place, he realizes that there is a God who can protect us. With this assurance he next rebukes Him, “O God, why did You not make me act in the right way, why did You allow me to walk on the wrong path?”

Spirituality and Healing

Q: How can we help somebody to be physically healed through spiritual means?

Ramdas: That should not be the aim of Spirituality. The aim of spirituality is to elevate ourselves into the divine Consciousness. Thereafter God uses us as His instrument to heal physical sufferings of others, if He wills so. But to cultivate spiritual powers with the sole object of healing physical diseases of friends or neighbours, does not seem to be the right way. Let us heal ourselves within, heal our mind and make it divine. This is the first thing to be achieved so that our love for our neighbour be really pure and selfless. Otherwise we will be trying to heal the diseases of others with some motive which is not desirable.

Q: How can we know that we have received grace?

Ramdas: As soon as grace comes to us, we become conscious of it. Our heart becomes perfectly pure and we shall bear no ill-will towards anybody. We shall be overflowing with love towards all beings on the earth. We shall experience within us a rare joy which we never experienced before.

Q: Will all mankind reach the superconscious state one day through evolution?

Ramdas: That is our prayer to God.

Q: Does not that happen inevitably by reincarnation?

Ramdas: By the mere fact that a man is reborn, it does not mean that he is evolving. But we are all on the road that leads to ultimate liberation. Everybody has to reach one day or another that supreme state of liberation. One may reach it earlier, another later, but everybody will ultimately attain that goal. It is inevitable.

The day of our departure from Geneva came. Although the parting from friends was a great wrench, Mr. and Mrs. Herbert did not feel it so much because they were to meet us again in France after our visit to Germany. We boarded the plane which took us in a short time to Frankfurt in Germany.