← The Gospel of Swami RamdasHis talks, as recorded by Swami Satchidananda

1953-01-16

Chapter 14

Anandashram, January 16, 1953

116. What Survives Realisation – Divinised Individuality

After coffee, Papa was sitting on his chair in the bhajan-hall. Swami Ramananda was sitting in front of him and Swami Krishnananda to his left. Later on, the American friend Ray Magee, MR Ramaswami, S and others came one by one and sat facing Papa.

Ramaswami: S and myself were discussing last night what sort of individuality or personality survives after one is liberated. Will Papa kindly enlighten us on this.

Papa: Individuality is a very poor word. We must find some other more suitable word for what survives after moksha. Individuality implies the ego-consciousness. When the ego is destroyed, then individual sense also is destroyed, it disappears. That which remains is neither individuality, nor the ego. When the Impersonal is realised, the realiser, the realised and the process of realisation, all become one.

Ramaswami: Then who survives except the Absolute?

Papa: You are speaking like Sankara! (laughter). There is no survival. This is the mystery. How can these things be true at the same time? Therefore some say there is no survival and some say there is survival. None can express clearly what it is and what it is not. To say there is individuality does not seem to be right, and to say there is not, also does not seem to be correct. How can we say anything about the inexpressible? Buddha speaks of nirvana and Sankara of Moksha. What they say seem to be almost the same; but, according to the Buddhist scriptures, there is a survival of personality in a divinised and subtle form, full of light.

Ramaswami: Having gone beyond the gunas, how can they retain even the subtle body – a product of prakriti? Is it transformed into suddha sattwa?

Papa: Suddha-sattwa too is subject to change. It is not permanent. Lord Vishnu is said to be the personification of suddha sattwa, which, in a way, is beyond the three gunas. They could not find a suitable word to describe that state and so they called it suddha sattwa. The bodies of Narada, Suka and Hanuman were all divinised. They are all immortals. Hanuman is said to be vajrakaya, possessing an indestructible body. So, such a thing is possible. The state of the jivanmukta is compared to that of a drop which becomes one with the ocean. That, of course, is the state which all jivanmuktas attain. Still there remains a divinised individuality. It is the divine power and will that causes the jivanmukta's body to talk, walk, and move about. His illumined personality persists even after the body is cast off.

117. The State of Moksha is Indescribable – Avatars and Jivanmuktas

Ramaswami: Can we have an eternal embodiment of the Impersonal?

Papa: The body continues even after moksha. It can remain imperishable. But whatever we speak about an individual's state of moksha cannot be true, because we are judging from without. To say that there is survival of individuality or to deny it entirely are both wrong. Even a jivanmukta cannot answer the question, for he also can speak of it only standing outside. How can he describe what is really inexpressible? That is why sages and philosophers differ in trying to express what their ultimate spiritual experience is. Experiences written by or about jivanmuktas can only take one up to the door of realisation and leave one there. What is inside the door is a mystery. One has to get in and realise the Truth for oneself.

Continuing, Papa said, "We have heard instances of some saints having departed with their bodies. This was said of saints Appayya (the ancestor of Mataji) Ramalinga Swami, Nandanar and Tukaram. The saints continue to inspire and help thousands of devotees, who have never even seen them. Ramdas feels that it is not mere imagination of the sadhakas, but the inspiration is real."

Ray Magee: What is the difference between an avatar and an illumined saint?

Papa: Avatars, who are embodiments of God, specially come down to earth to show the path of peace to suffering humanity. For this purpose the unmanifest divine assumes a human form. Avatars have definitely more power than siddha-purushas or saints, who have evolved to the state of jivanmukti or illumination, by a gradual process from birth to birth. The siddhas also work for the uplift of humanity. But they are not specially sent, as it were, for the redemption of humanity. Avatars have greater power, work in a vaster field, and save millions. Siddhas or saints may be compared to wells while avatars are like rivers in spate. You know, while the well can serve only a very small area, a river in spate covers a very wide area, and water is made available to millions of beings. Sri Ramakrishna compares them to a boat and an ocean liner respectively.

Ramaswami: If the siddha is one with God, is he not as great as the avatar?

Papa: He is not. For the avatar is a special descent of God for the welfare of humanity as a whole.

Swami Krishnananda: Can the Absolute manifest Itself without a medium?

Papa: It can. Absolute becomes the medium Itself.

118. Saint and God are One

S: Is there any difference between the personality or individuality of the avatar and of the jivanmukta?

Papa: There is no difference between the two. It is the same cosmic power that works through both. As soon as one becomes a jivanmukta, he ceases to have the individuality of the ordinary type; he is the illumined vehicle of God. Ramdas shall tell you a story in this connection. Listen. A boy aged about five, the only son of his parents, passed away suddenly. The parents were very much grieved over the loss. They tried their best to bring the child back to life, but failed. Finally, they went to a saint who was living near, and begged him to pray to God to bring the child back to life. The saint was brought to the house and the dead body of the child was placed before him. Then he was asked to pray. He accordingly prayed: 'O Lord, may You be gracious enough to bring this child back to life!' Nothing happened. The prayer was repeated again, but the miracle did not happen. The saint then, looking at the parents, said, 'I have prayed as you wanted, but nothing has happened. Now watch and see!' So saying he looked at the dead body and said, 'I command you, get up!' That very moment the dead boy revived and got up! The saint had realised his oneness with God. His prayer was really meaningless. To whom was he to pray? There was no God apart from him. He and God were one. His command was the same as God's command and so it brought about the desired effect. The story shows that the saint did not possess a separate individuality from that of God.

S: But there is difference in the way an avatar and a saint talk. Avatars, as in the case of Krishna, never talked the language of those who were feeling different from God, as one separate from God. But, saints sometimes say that they are God and at other times say they are the children or servants of God.

Papa: Did not Krishna too worship the images of Narada, Prahlada, Dhruva and other bhaktas? Did he not wash the feet of Sudama? Ramdas allows himself to be worshipped, and sits for bhajan on a high asan like a lord; at the same time he is prepared to wash the feet of you all and prostrate before you. But you do not allow him to do so. When others prostrate before him he sees only God prostrating before God. When he serves others, his attitude is that of a servant who serves God in various forms. In either case it is God alone whom Ramdas sees everywhere.

Swami Krishnananda: As we know Papa is God, we prostrate before you and cannot allow you to do so to us. We are only human, and hence your servants.

Papa: That is your game; play on! One day you will get tired of the game and then you will reveal what you really are. Then the play of pretension will end.

119. Recollection of Sadhana Days

In the evening between 4 and 5, Papa read to Mataji and some others in the bhajan-hall, a few pages from the book ‘Day by Day with Bhagawan’. After reading, Papa went out for a walk accompanied by Mataji, Swami Ramananda, Ramkishor and S. Remembering what he had read in the book, Papa said, "When Ramdas read that Maharshi went for bhiksha in the streets of Tiruvannamalai, Ramdas remembered how he himself went for bhiksha, probably in the same street. Ramdas’ going to Tiruvannamalai was within ten days of his taking sannyas. After he had Darshan of Maharshi, he went and sat in the big temple of Arunachala, when somebody invited him for meal. Perhaps it was the next day that he went and stayed in the cave and was henceforth coming down to the town daily for alms. His mental condition in those days was simply wonderful. After leaving Tiruvannamalai, while wandering in various places, he was eating very little of whatever was given to him. Once he was sitting with many sadhus for a feast and they served malpuris. Ramdas had only two or three teeth left in his mouth. He put a piece of this sweet cake in his mouth and it stuck in the throat. It would not either come out or go down. He had no water with him and had to tell others, by a sign, to give him some water. He was all right after taking water. Ramdas could eat only a small piece of the puri. Later, the bhakta who gave the feast came to Ramdas, and took him to a cot in a hut and asked him to sit on it, himself sitting by Ramdas’ side, rubbing his feet. Ramdas sat on the cot, and chanted Ram Nam and was like a blissful child. He had hardly any desire to speak in those days. A sadhu used to take Ramdas with him to different places. In some places they were rebuked by people, while in some others they were shown kindness. When we got food, we shared it between us, and drank water from a well or stream. Such was the life Ramdas was leading in those days.

120. The Engine and the Wagons

9 p.m. The Ram Nam counts were entered in the note-book. The total figure of the day was encouraging. After signing the last note-book, Papa tried to estimate how many crores of Ram Nam he must have repeated during his sadhana period. Allowing a few hours for talk and so on, he said that he was sure to have done at least twenty hours of Japa a day, and that the repetition went on steadily till the present ashram was started. He calculated and found that it might well have exceeded seven crores. Continuing, he said smiling:

"Anyway, all may be sure that Ramdas had repeated the number required to get him the vision of God. Now that he has attained Him, he can be compared to a big railway engine which can pull many wagons to the destination. The devotees have only to keep themselves linked with Ramdas, as the wagons are linked to the engine, and they will, in course of time, be taken to the destination. Ramdas had told Mataji that it was for her and others' sake that he went on these pilgrimages, so that the path for her and others might be made easier. Some of the devotees will not always remain as wagons; God will make them engines."

Mataji: Papa, let me remain a wagon for ever.

Papa: No, how can it be? You are already an engine.

S: Papa is the engine in front and Mataji is the engine in the rear, like the engines in the train climbing the Nilgiris. One engine pulls and the other pushes from behind. The wagons are therefore safe in between the two engines.

Papa: Yes, the devotees are quite safe. But you are not going to be mere wagons. You will all be engines. Those who stay with Ramdas and serve him do not do it for nothing. They must become real engines, more or less powerful, but fit enough to carry a few to the destination.

S: Papa's assurance is very encouraging.

121. Genesis of the Ashram

Papa narrated his experiences during the first year of his wandering life, how he was guided from within to do the right thing always and how he spent the time in caves, mountains, holy places of pilgrimage and so on. Papa then said:-

"In those days Ramdas was like a live wire. Those who saw Ramdas then, find in him now, an ocean of difference. Many even think that he has fallen from the path by the association and company of Mataji. Many had doubts about the relationship between him and Mataji. They came to stay here and watch our lives. Having seen what was going on here, they regretted having suspected us; they wept and prostrated before Ramdas begging to be excused for their folly. With the terrible agony of repentance they rolled on the ground. Those were very hard days in the ashram. But we stood firm and faced everything bravely. Sometimes Ramdas was furious in those days and people were afraid to come before him. In fact, he would never have started this ashram if he had not given his word to Mataji. Mataji was solely depending on him. When they left the ashram at Kasaragod, without any plans, she stood in front of Ramdas and, with tears in her eyes, begged him to permit her to stay wherever he stayed. He gave the permission. She also made him promise that he would not go away anywhere without telling her. And so this ashram had to be founded."

January 17, 1953

122. His Inner Promptings Willed by God

After breakfast, there was the usual talk with devotees gathered in the bhajan-hall. Papa was narrating a few incidents in his life to show how he was guided by God at every step.

Ray Magee: How was God speaking to you? Were you hearing the voice clearly?

Papa: Ramdas considered every inner prompting or external happening as willed by God. He had absolutely no doubt about this. Sadhakas often doubt whether an inner prompting is from God or from their ego. It is hard to decide.

S: Had Papa no doubt at all about this?

Papa (pausing a little in thought): No. Ramdas had no doubts at all, though sometimes he used to say that he made a mistake. To whom was he saying this? It was to God Himself.

S: Did Papa have any regret for having committed the mistake?

Papa: Yes, at times, but the regret also was by His will. We must be able to enjoy also the rasa (taste) of sorrow.

123. Doubt Worse than Bullet

Regarding doubts, Papa continued: "Ramdas remembers Rama Tirtha's words: 'Instead of having a doubt in your heart, it is better to have a bullet there.' Doubt is worse than a bullet. If you entertain a doubt, your fall is certain. The state in which there is no doubt is complete surrender to the will of God. It is through intuition you know that God guides you in every act. If you are aware that God inspires you from within and without, then there cannot be any doubt in your heart. But if your surrender is not complete, you will be badly shaken when you are blamed by anyone. Only if your surrender to Him is complete, you will be in a position to answer boldly that whatever you did was prompted by God. Even if there was room for any criticism, you would not be affected by what others might say. Jesus was told that he was wrong in preaching to the people about God and heaven. So also was Socrates warned for turning the minds of young men from worldly life, towards the knowledge of the Eternal. Both of them were not afraid of the threats, but carried on their work, without heeding what the people in high places said. They did not budge from their course as they fully believed that God was inspiring them in all matters and they had no choice as to what they should or should not do. They were prepared to face even death, but would not give up their work. They faced crucifixion and death by poison bravely. This is a sign of their complete freedom from doubt."

Swami Krishnananda: When we are near Papa, we feel we are free. The moment we go away, we feel we are bound.

Papa: You are all liberated. Give up the thought that you are bound.

124. Reminiscences of Sadhana Period

The talk then turned on Papa's earlier life and wandering days. Papa narrated the events leading to his return to Mangalore after a year's journey to sacred places. He happened to come to Hubli for the Darshan of Sri Siddharudha Swami and was staying in the mutt. Mother Rukmabai (his partner in the householder's life) got scent of this, went to Hubli with her daughter, saw Papa and wanted him to return home. But Papa had gone far beyond the point of any return to the old life. There upon she requested Sri Siddharudha Swami to ask Papa to accompany her to Mangalore. Sri Siddharudha Swami called Papa and asked him to go with her. Papa agreed to do so.

Continuing the narrative, Papa said, "When leaving Hubli, Ramdas had no plans, no idea of his future. He told Rukmabai that he was but another child of hers. He was playing all the time with her daughter. As soon as the boat touched the shore at Mangalore, Ramdas jumped out and ran away to the Kadri hill. He spent some time there, on the veranda of the Yogi Mutt, and later occupied the Panch Pandav Cave. After a few days, Ramdas went to see Rukmabai and was taken to task for leaving her alone at the bunder, at which Ramdas simply laughed. She was not very happy about it and made some casual remarks. When she saw Ramdas still laughing, she asked him why he was only laughing at whatever she said. Ramdas told her that he had gone there to make her also laugh. Even from his boyhood, Ramdas was in the habit of taking things easy and laughing them away. Her father came and suggested to Ramdas that instead of running away to the cave, he might be good enough to stay in their house, and that he would give him a separate room upstairs and afford him all necessary conveniences. Ramdas stayed there for two days. He was taking food upstairs. On the second day Rukmabai's father suggested to Ramdas: 'Your sadhana and repetition of Ram Nam, if done here at home, will be greatly beneficial to your family and also the other members here.' This suggestion, that he should perform sadhana only for the benefit of the people in the house, shocked Ramdas. When Rukmabai's father left the room, Ramdas came out unnoticed and then vanished from sight. They must have later gone to the room only to see that the bird had flown out of the cage. Whenever he went there he was asked to stay, but Ramdas never did so.

“One day he was asked to take meal in the house. Ramcharan, a sannyasi, was also with him. When they had taken food, mother Rukmabai said to Ramdas, ‘By your leaving me, my condition has become very bad. I am left in the lurch with nobody to hold on to.’ Ramdas advised her to look up to God for help. That was the only way to get over all anxieties. He asked her to repeat God's name constantly and take complete refuge in Him. She was shedding tears. Ramdas gave her some further advice and came away. Ramcharan, who was watching the same, said to Ramdas: ‘You are, indeed, a wonderful man. You are a hard-baked brick. You come here, take food, talk freely and play with the child. Still, you are so much detached that even when she weeps before you, you remain unmoved and quietly depart!' Ramdas replied that he was sorry she suffered unnecessarily. When mother Rukmabai met Ramdas again in Bombay, she asked him what he was going to do about the marriage of her daughter. Ramdas asked her, ‘Who is to marry her off? The responsibility is with God.’ She complained she had not a single pie with her and asked what she could do about it. Ramdas too had not a copper with him. He laughed and said to her, ‘Why do not you think of God and leave all matters in His hands? Then everything will go on well.’ And God arranged things in such a way that the marriage took place soon after, without Ramdas doing anything about it. God is all in all. This is the lesson one has to learn from these experiences. What are we after all? Nothing. When we surrender and leave things to Him, all will be easy and well. But when we take it that the responsibility is ours, and we are going to do so many things, then we get into deep morass.

“After some years, mother Rukmabai came and stayed with Ramdas at the Kasaragod Ashram. But her health was not good and the conveniences in the ashram were not satisfactory for her. She stayed there for a few days, but could not carry on."

125. Attitude to Mother Rukmabai – The Open Secret

One of the devotees asked Papa how, as a sannyasi, he permitted her to stay with him.

Papa: Why not? Ramdas is but a child of God. He could freely move with all people in whom he sees only his beloved Ram. So when mother Rukmabai wanted to stay with him, she was gladly allowed to do so. Sri Ramakrishna had his wife staying with him. He looked upon her as his divine mother.

Swami Krishnananda: Why, then, did Papa not stay in the father-in-law's house when they wanted him to do so?

Papa: They were of opinion that Ramdas should do sadhana in their house for their sake only. Ramdas belonged to the whole universe. How then could he have stayed on in that house?

MR Ramaswami: It is said that Swami Rama Tirtha refused to see his wife when she went to meet him in the Himalayas.

Papa: Probably because the he was a strict sannyasi. Ramdas is only a humble child of sannyasis. If mother Rukmabai were alive now, she would have been staying here. She was very fond of Mataji, who served her so lovingly during her illness. When Rukmabai was in the Kasaragod ashram, she used to tell Ramdas: 'You must give me that bliss which you have got. You must give it to me even if you do not give it to anybody else.' Ramdas asked her to repeat Ram Nam. She complained that even though she was repeating Ram Nam, she could not get so much joy. She used to say: 'There must be something else which you are holding back from me.' She could not believe Ramdas when he said he had hidden nothing from her. She would come to Ramdas when he was alone and ask him, 'Now tell me what the secret is. I will see nobody else knows it.' However much Ramdas tried to convince her that there was no secret, she would not believe it.

Ramaswami: Papa has got the secret of secrets, an open secret.

Papa: Ramdas can only tell everyone how to get at the secret. He can only show the path. The secret to be realised is something beyond expression. Ramdas is not holding back anything in the matter of spiritual discipline from anyone. He has openly told whatever he was to say, in different ways, in his writings and talks. He has freely poured himself out.

Papa was sitting on his bed for the afternoon nap. Ramkishor was sitting a few yards away. His mother casually mentioned how Ramkishor broke and damaged things in the house. Papa called out to Ramkishor and asked him if he was playing the part of Shiva, the destroyer, now, and when he was going to play the part of Vishnu. Ramkishor replied that up the twelfth year he would he Shiva and after that would change to Vishnu.

Swami Krishnananda: If you play Shiva's part too much, you will be locked up in the Dharmashala till you change into Vishnu.

Ramkishor: If you lock me inside, I will, as Shiva, break the doors and come out.

He then came and sat on the cot by Papa's side. His mother said Ramkishor would be having a close shave the next day like a sannyasi. He said that he would wear ochre-coloured cloth also. Asked if he wanted to be a sannyasi, he said, "No! But I would wear ochre-coloured clothes for some time, as I like the colour. Then I can be called Shiva Swami."

He sat closer to Papa and asked him, "What was I in my last birth?'

Papa: You were perhaps Ramacharandas.

Ramkishor: How do you know?

Papa: Ramacharandas also used to love Ramdas like you.

Ramkishor: Was he growing beard, or was he clean shaven?

Papa: Sometimes he had long hair and sometimes he had a clean shave. He had no beard.

126. Yogi Milarepa

5.15 p.m. Papa started for his evening walk. Mataji and others also accompanied him. Addressing Mataji, Papa said, "Ramdas has completed reading the book Yogi Milarepa. He has not translated the last few pages to you. Milarepa's end was very interesting. Before he disappeared from the world, he had left a lump of brown sugar and also a piece of cloth with instructions to cut them into four bits and again each bit into four, and so on, that they might suffice for any number of devotees who would come for prasad. They did accordingly, and thousands of devotees got the prasad. Ramdas has also not told you about the earliest portions relating to the Yogi's domestic life; the ill treatment he got from his uncle, and how he, in turn, got his uncle into trouble by black magic. He resorted to every kind of mean and brutal act. And to wipe off these sins, he had later on to pass through severe austerities. He was very cruel in his early days but when he turned Godward, he put his heart and soul into his sadhana and, being absolutely dispassionate, reached the goal quickly.

Similarly, we find some persons, who are looked upon as the worst of sinners, suddenly awakened, do severe sadhana with intense aspiration for God, and shoot up to the spiritual summit like a rocket. There may be others who are known to be all good, and have been leading a devout life, but who, because of their lukewarm aspiration, make slow progress and reach the goal after a long, a long time.

127. Mistake in Bill

7 p.m. Mataji and Keshav Bhatt came to the office for instruction regarding the day's purchases. Swami Krishnananda, who was in charge of the accounts, then showed Mataji a bill for exercise books bought for Ram Nam-writing. The shopkeeper had made a mistake in calculation and had omitted to take into account twelve annas.

Swami Krishnananda: The shopkeeper has shown twelve annas less.

Mataji: That is all right. Let him bear a share in the cost of note-books for Ram Nam-writing. Let him have that good fortune.

Swami Krishnananda: But we must let him know about the mistake. Let him give his share knowingly. Otherwise the man who made the bill will get into trouble. It will also be a little awkward for Keshav.

Mataji: If they ask Keshav about it, he can say that the books purchased were for writing Ram Nam and the twelve annas were considered as the shopkeeper's contribution for the same. But if the man who wrote the bill is likely to get into trouble on this account, Keshav will do well to tell the shopkeeper about it tomorrow without waiting to be asked.

Papa was translating into Konkani for Mataji a couple of letters received from Bombay. One was from PK Sarangapani Mudaliar who had been admitted in the hospital in Bombay for an operation. The other was from Sri Narottam M Shah. The letters were full of love pouring out from the hearts of devotees. In the end Papa remarked: "The devotees from all parts are deluging us with their love, and Ramdas is simply swimming in the ocean of love. He is really drinking the nectar of love. Once a friend said that Ramdas was like sugar candy in a pot of syrup."