← The Gospel of Swami RamdasHis talks, as recorded by Swami Satchidananda

1956-01-03

Chapter 46

January 3, 1956

484. Departure for Bhavnagar

All got up very early to start on the journey to Bhavnagar. Narottam Shah had informed Papa about the expected arrival of Sati Godavari Mata in Bombay and also of her desire to see Papa. She was due at 6 o'clock in the morning and Papa was to be at the airport at 7.15 a.m. So, to make things easy, Papa himself suggested that he would go to the house of Sri Ranchhoddas, where she would be, and spend a few minutes with her. At 5.50 a.m. Narottam Shah reported that Sati Godavari Mata had arrived.

All started from 'Shreyas' at 6 a.m. and drove to Ranchhoddas' house to spend fifteen minutes with Godavari Mata and the kanyas. Godavari Mata enquired about the health of Papa and Mataji and requested Papa to visit Sakori on their way back from Bombay to the ashram. Papa, however, expressed his inability.

The party reached the aerodrome around 7.15 a.m. and the plane took off at 7.45 a.m. with Papa and party, Gunvantrai Kamdar and his wife.

Ramdas-Ashram, Bhavnagar, January 3, 1956

485. Saint free from discipline

The plane landed at Bhavnagar at 9 o'clock. Papa and Mataji were received at the aerodrome by Sumatilal Kamdar and other devotees. By 9.30 a.m. they were in Ramdas-Ashram. Immediately on arrival, a large number of devotees waiting there greeted Papa and Mataji. Gunvantrai Kamdar performed Papa's pada-pooja. After a short bhajan, the devotees dispersed.

Being the first day of Papa's stay there many devotees had yet to come and regular programmes had not been arranged. However, there were about a dozen men and women sitting in front of Papa in the afternoon. S went and sat near Papa, when suddenly Papa turned towards him and asked: "Have you seen a fully realised saint in the West or in the East?"

S (after some thought): Papa himself said yesterday or so that it is extremely difficult for a person to say whether another has advanced spiritually or not. Then how can I answer this question?

Papa: Yes. You are perfectly right. It is very difficult to say anything about the state of another. A saint is absolutely free from all worldly and spiritual disciplines. That means, an ordinary person is caught up in the worldly things whereas a saint is completely free from them. A man on the spiritual path is strictly tied up to his spiritual disciplines. But a saint is free even from these disciplines. A saint's actions are spontaneous, and flow out as prompted by the Divine. He lives, moves and does all acts only for the benefit of others.

486. Mataji on her autobiography

Mataji had been dictating since 1950 her life-story at intervals, some of long duration. The narration had reached the period when Papa and Mataji came to Kanhangad. With a view to completing the story early, S approached her, notebook in hand, when Mataji remarked: "My mind is mostly in the ashram now. So I do not feet like doing anything about the book here. Secondly I am not at all satisfied with the style of writing. I cannot write in Papa's style. I want to bring out all the aspects. For example, the quarrels and misbehaviour of some devotees. How can I avoid mentioning such things? Why should these not be mentioned? Is there no place for such things in the book? Are there not quarrels in households? Don't children quarrel? Our quarrel is only like that. It bursts out for a moment and afterwards it is all quiet. I feel that if we do not mention such aspects, the sadhakas who are supposed to benefit from the book will find it extremely difficult to walk on the path when they meet with such situations. They must be able to understand all the aspects of our life."

January 4, 1956

487. Surrender must follow sadhana

10 a.m. The morning bhajan was over. Papa was back in his room and a few devotees were sitting in front of him. More devotees were coming in one by one.

Papa: Worldly things or God can be had if you intensely long for them. After intensely longing for them you must let go the longing. Leave the matter to God and then your desire is fulfilled. So long as you are longing and longing without allowing God to play His part, it will only be a protracted struggle. You place yourself always in a state of anxiety and fear as long as you feel that you yourself can get things done. Stop worrying and leave everything in the hands of God: immediately the result is attained. You set an arrow to the bow, pull the string, and let go. Instead, if you go on pulling and pulling, the arrow won't be shot at all. Do you think that by worrying you can achieve anything? No. You must leave it to Him after doing your part. The trouble is, you do not allow God to do His part.

When your mind is silent, it does not come in the way of God playing His part. This is the secret of success. Churning the curds is all right, but after having churned for some time you have to stop doing so and allow the butter to be formed. Instead, if you go on churning and churning, butter can never be obtained. So also, when you have a problem in your hands, you must think about it, work hard for the attainment of your object and then sit silent, leaving everything to Him, without thinking any more about the problem. Keep the mind still, calm and serene. It is in the still mind that divine power, light and joy act and reflect.

It is a custom in India that whenever people want to undertake some important work, say, conducting a marriage, the construction of a house or the like, they first go to a temple or to a saint, receive blessings and feel assured that the undertaking will be crowned with success. In the holy atmosphere of the temple or in the presence of a saint, for the moment they forget everything about the problem and consequently their mind is calm and serene. They then go out into the world and set to work and God fulfils their task. Therefore it is said that in the beginning of any undertaking you have to do some worship for propitiating a higher power to help you.

Many people say that they do not realise their object however much they struggle. Struggle is a sure condition of progress, but struggle is not the end. Struggle is only a means. At a certain stage you must cease struggling.

Ramdas often remembers the story of the two frogs that fell into a pot of curds. The inside surface of the pot was very smooth. The frogs could not get out without finding some foothold. After struggling for some time the bigger frog said to the other, 'There is no chance of our escape. Let us sink and die. Why should we struggle at all when we know our struggle will never end in success?' To this the younger frog replied, ‘I will struggle to get out as long as I have life in my body.' The bigger one kept quite, sank down and died while the other kept on struggling to find a way out. After some time it was tired and could not move its limbs any more. It became quiet and was floating. By the constant movement of the frog the curd was sufficiently churned and when the frog became quiet, a big lump of butter was formed. Now the frog got its hold on the butter and from there jumped out of the pot. The bigger one died in the pot itself. If the other frog had not stopped its effort to get out, the butter would not have been formed and it could not have escaped.

488. Total surrender sees miracles

Continuing, Papa said: "When we leave things to a higher power we get the opportunity to rise higher. Churning is necessary, but stopping it is also necessary. Surrender to God, saying 'O God, I am in your hands,' and remain blissful. This surrender brings the result quickly. Don't you think so? This is practical philosophy."

A devotee: But the line of demarcation is very difficult to find.

Papa: You must know the technique of keeping the mind still. This is of course difficult. But saints teach you how to do it. Take the name of God and ask the mind to keep quiet and allow God to work. The moment you feel, 'O God, I am nothing, you are everything; I am entirely in your hands’, your mind is automatically free from other thoughts and is calm. Surrender means realisation of whatever you wish to achieve. The company of saints is essential. In their company the waves of your mind cease. Even Draupadi, who was closely associating with Lord Krishna, did not know the secret of surrender until light dawned on her by His grace. She then did the right thing at the end, although in the beginning she was trying to defend herself. Dussasana was trying to disrobe her. She was calling on Krishna, but at the same time trying to protect herself. Krishna did not come to her rescue. But when she let go both her hands and entirely put herself in the hands of Krishna, He came and helped her. We are calling on God to help us and at the same time we are trying to solve our problems ourselves. Listen to a story. Such stories give us courage and lead us on the right path. (Papa narrates the story of Damaji Pant. Refer to paragraph 75)

You all know the story of Narsi Mehta. These are not imaginary or concocted stories. Here and there, in the lives of devotees, such miracles have happened. This attitude of surrender does not remain always. Whenever such moments come, miracles are worked by a mysterious power. That power is God, whom you trust, to whom you pray, and to whom you hand yourself over. When a vacuum is formed, air rushes in from all sides. So also when your mind is free from all thoughts and desires by surrender to the divine, help comes from all sides. By the surrender you release many forces outside, which help you in every way. Even those who were opposed to you, now come to help you. That is the mysterious power of God. These two or three instances are enough to show the result of surrender to God.

A devotee: We have to ensure that surrender is not ‘tamasic’. In day-to-day work, surrender is difficult.

Papa: You must work in a state of surrender. Surrender and work are not against each other. Surrender does not mean idleness. The devotee says, 'O God, I am your instrument and you are making me do everything.' Become the servant of Ram. The Lord is always watching, guiding and inspiring His servant.

It was time for Papa to bathe. Mataji's call had come. The devotees got up and left the room. Papa went for his bath.

12 noon. After lunch Papa was just pacing the room prior to his usual afternoon rest. A young man dressed in white, one cloth round his waist and another over his body, with another piece covering his mouth, peeped in. From his dress it could be made out that he was a Jain muni. He greeted Papa, still peeping in through the curtain. Papa went near him. The Jain sadhu talked to Papa in high pitch about the dharma of absolute ‘ahimsa’ they were supposed to follow and how it was sinful for one to give trouble or even think ill of others. One Gujarati friend (Kanubhai, nephew of GT Kamdar) informed Papa that the Jain sadhu had been refused food and shelter by other Jain sadhus because of some petty differences. Papa called the Jain sadhu to come in and sit. The sadhu appeared to be reluctant to walk or even place his feet on the carpet spread in the room. Kanubhai then explained to Papa that he would not sit there. Papa told the sadhu: "If you are not sitting, Ramdas also is not going to sit." So they kept standing and talking for some time till the sadhu left.

489. No disciples, only friends

7 p.m. A middle-aged stranger entered Papa's room when he was sitting there after his evening meal. The visitor saluted Papa and sat at a distance. He started asking a few questions. As Papa could not hear him, he asked him to come near.

Visitor: You are going to give us your divine company for some months. It is a blessing.

Papa: Ramdas will be here for about two months.

Visitor: What is your caste?

Papa: No caste.

Visitor: Your former caste?

Papa: No caste; no brahmin, no kshatriya, no vaisya, no sudra. He has no caste.

Visitor: Is it so? It may be at present. What about the former caste?

Papa: No former, no latter.

Visitor: I am a brahmin, I am a brahmin.

Papa: Is it so?

Visitor: Can you accept me as your disciple – your humble disciple?

Papa: Ramdas has no disciples. He has only friends.

Visitor: I want to be your disciple.

Papa: No. Ramdas has no disciples at all. All are his friends. No disciple, no Guru. All are the manifestations of God. Where is the Guru and where is the disciple then?

The visitor had apparently nothing more to talk. After keeping quiet for some time he got up and left the room.

January 5, 1956

490. Great to know oneself to be little

10 a.m. After the morning bhajan, when Papa was back in his room, a sadhu came and prostrated before Papa. Papa greeted him with the words, "O Maharaj, Kripa Rakhna," and enquired about his whereabouts. He said he was coming from a place nearby. Sai Sattar Shah was also sitting near Papa. The sadhu spoke a few words to Sai Sattar Shah and asked him how he happened to be there. He replied, "I came here because Swamiji is here. I will stay as long as he is here."

Hearing that remark, Papa, with folded hands, said to Sai Sattar Shah, "It is your grace alone that has made you come here and give your sweet company to Ramdas. How gracious saints are! They come of their own accord and give us darshan."

At this the sadhu, who had taken his seat on the carpet by the side of Papa's chair said, "Where there is jaggery, flies and insects automatically swarm round. We are all flies or insects and you are jaggery."

Papa laughed and said: "It is better to be an ant than to become sugar itself."

Sai Sattar Shah: It is always happier to remain a little thing; to bend down rather than keep one's head erect. A tree that bears fruits keeps its head down by the weight of the fruits. That which has no fruits keeps its branches erect. So saints who are full with the realisation of God, are very humble. They have no ‘abhiman’ in them. Suppose a child is seen in the street, left alone. Anybody would lift it up with love and do all that is necessary to take it to the proper place. If it is a grown-up boy or a man, nobody would care. If at all they help, they just show him the way. So it is always better to be small. You see big and small vessels. How do you keep them? All big vessels below and the smallest on the top!

Papa: There is a beautiful saying in English, ‘It is little to know oneself to be great and it is great to know oneself to be little.’

The sadhu got up, prostrated before Papa and Sai Sattar Shah and left the room.

January 6, 1956

491. Poetical homage to Mataji

9.45 a.m. Morning bhajan was over. Papa was sitting in his room. Sai Sattar Shah was sitting on a chair near Papa and some devotees on the floor in front of Papa. Mukundrai with Prajarambhai who was the Principal of the local Ayurvedic College, came in. Mukundrai was the secretary in Kamdar's office. Papa knew both these young men. As soon as they entered, Papa greeted them saying, "Ah, the two poets have come. Sit down."

They sat, and Papa started talking about poetry. He said, "It is not easy to become a poet. Real poetry comes when you are in tune with God. Poetry does not merely mean rhymes. An inspired poet may write beautiful poetry though not strictly adhering to rhymes. Even though it reads like prose, it will convey lofty ideas. That is real poetry. Ramdas is not a poet."

Mukundrai: This friend is a devotee of Sri Aurobindo. He has written many poems in Gujarati and they are being printed.

Papa: You must be knowing Indira Devi, the poet.

Mukundrai: Yes, she stays with Dillip Kumar Roy. You have referred to her in your new book.

Papa: Ramdas has met her twice or thrice. She is an inspired poet. She has written a beautiful poem about Mataji. (To a devotee: 'Just give Ramdas that Souvenir'). This is her poem.

MOTHER, I BOW TO YOU

Mother, I bow to you. I do not know whether you are the Divine Mother: But that all orphaned hearts feel the love of mother in you – I know. So, in that faith of a child – I bow to you. Mother, I bow to you.

What spiritual heights you have scaled – are beyond my ken; But that you lean down in compassion to us, earthlings – I see. So, in that humility of a recipient – I bow to you. Mother, I bow to you.

Whether you are missioned to change the world With the magic wand of your powers – I do not know. But that you have had the strength to transform Your human mould into a divine image – I see. So, in that awe of a miracle-beholder – I bow to you. Mother, I bow to you.

What part you play in the divine scheme of things – Is more than I can appraise; But I see that you are a luminous star on the brow of womanhood, The living fulfilment of a woman's destiny. So, in that joy of a star-gazer – I bow to you.

O heavenly Messenger from the starland of Bliss!

You have made our sufferings seem lighter By showing us how to bear pain dauntlessly. O proud will of Immortality! By effacing your self-will at the feet of your Guru, You have made our human pride seem so paltry.

Glory to you, O Guru's torch-bearer!

Grant that we may follow your footsteps.

Who you are, and what are your attributes – I do not know;

All I know is that this earth is blessed that you are here,

And that we are thrice-blessed that you are what you are,

So, in that gratitude of a woman – I bow to you.

It is a very beautiful poem. Many write as if they have understood; but she has understood Mataji. Her contact with the Mother is not long. Long contact is not really necessary. Some can understand others by short contact, not superficially but deeply.

Papa then read a part of his own poem about the Mother, published in the Souvenir. When he stopped, Mataji came in.

Papa (to the poets): This is the Mother about whom Ramdas read now. After writing all these, Ramdas felt he had written nothing at all about her. It is impossible to write about her. So what Ramdas has written is nothing compared to what she is!

492. Face the trials of life bravely

1.30 p.m. Papa was alone in his room reading the mail. A devotee came in.

Devotee: Swamiji, I know we should come to you only for the realisation of the Self. Still we are coming to you for many things of the world, I want some guidance. How can I detach myself from all things?

Papa: As your mind turns more and more and towards God, your attachment towards the things of the world will get less and less. So it can be done only gradually and not all of a sudden.

Devotee: I have certain convictions. I cannot accept things as they are. I want to discuss and explain my point of view. I am open to correction. My father and grandfather were both very learned. My father was a barrister and perhaps his argumentative nature I have inherited. I wanted to come yesterday, but I could not. I met RS Joshi, the Professor here, and had a frank discussion with him. He tried to explain to me; but I was not satisfied. I told him that I would come and discuss matters with you. But I feel diffident. While Joshi is a ‘samsari’, you are on a higher level. How can I open my heart and speak to you?

Papa: You can.

Devotee: One of my desires is that I should come to your ashram at Kasaragod and stay there for some time.

Papa: Our ashram is not in Kasaragod, but in Kanhangad.

Devotee: I went by boat to Mangalore, but could not come to you. I want blessings from you so that I can feel a little peace which I do not get at all. I was originally in Bombay with very high hopes, but all those hopes were shattered and I became miserable in every respect. I was once an ambitions man, but not now. I wish I could spend the remaining days of my life in peace. Sometimes I wish my end comes soon.

Papa: You should not get so much dispirited.

Devotee: But what shall I do? There is nobody to listen to me.

Papa: You should not give way to such grief or dejection. You must take heart.

Devotee: Where to get that?

Papa: You have got a heart; take it. It is not a heart that comes from outside. You must be courageous. Life is a trial for everybody, more bitter for some and less bitter for others; but all the same it is a trial for all. In moments of despair you should take courage.

Devotee: I cannot spend the whole day in ‘namasmaran’. I do my best; and whatever I do, I do in all sincerity. When I make a beginning, I can concentrate on it. But now the repetition of Ram Nam has become mechanical, so automatic that there is no concentration at all. The mind wanders and I find there is no use sitting for japa. I want to know one thing. Suppose I drive a car and meet with an accident. Then who has brought about the accident – Ram or myself?

Papa: When you are in the hands of Ram, it is Ram who does everything. Accidents do happen, which cause pain to others or even death in some cases, without our intending anything. Even such actions should be attributed to God. When good things are done we attribute them to God, why should we not attribute evil things also to Him? Surrender must be complete. You are not in any way trying to injure anybody purposely. But there is one thing. When you are conscious always that you are doing everything by His Will and Power, Ramdas does not think that you will be capable of driving in such a way as to cause accidents. No. Such an accident will never take place.

Devotee: Is renunciation necessary for spiritual progress?

Papa: Inner renunciation is more necessary than outer renunciation. There are so many who have renounced outwardly. That does not mean they have really renounced anything. Inner renunciation must come. It is real detachment that is needed. Many believe that by external renunciation they will get internal renunciation also. This is not always true. It may be of help, but by the mere fact that one has renounced outwardly, it does not mean that he will get inner renunciation. When you attain inner renunciation or inner transformation, your whole life is changed.

Devotee: We are in this world and we believe that people should multiply and the creation should be kept up. Some people have the will or the courage to renounce everything, and so they advance spiritually. Those like me are not able to do so. Therefore, am I not obliged to perform the duties assigned to me?

Papa: If you feel so, do your duties cheerfully. Face all trials bravely.

Devotee: If he gives us the duty, He must give us the courage also.

Papa: The question is whether you do it as duty enjoined upon you by Him or whether you have taken it upon yourself. If you take it upon yourself, then it will be accompanied by frustration, disappointment, pain and misery. If you feel that it is enjoined upon you by God, you will cheerfully face everything. As Ramdas has already told you, life is a trial for everybody. There are times when we have to meet with disappointments on account of troubles and losses. We must face up to all such situations.

Devotee: Now I have lost all mental courage and physical courage too. Nowadays I am too weak even to walk.

Papa: As the changes take place in you, you must keep up the even tenor of your mind and be cheerful. Face things bravely and get along. Never get depressed or dispirited.

493. Help to a devotee

Devotee: How to do that? Suppose my child is suffering.

Papa: That is true for everybody; not only you. Everybody has to face trouble one way or other. Should we succumb to such things? We must rise above all these mundane affairs. We have to submit to the will of God and allow Him to play His part in our life.

Devotee: I believe in Him and still I complain.

Papa: Mere half-hearted belief won't do. Your faith must be so intense and your surrender so complete that you leave everything to Him. Then He guides, inspires, helps and protects you.

Devotee: Can the Guru not help us in times of difficulties?

Papa: Ramdas is ready to help you. He tries his best to help all struggling souls.

Devotee: Let me feel your guidance. Last time I requested you to bless me and I bowed before you. I did not feel anything. But when you patted me on my back, oh, that put so much courage in me that I thought I could carry on for a year.

Papa: If you get such pats again, you should be able to carry on for the rest of your life.

Devotee: It is for that I have come here. (With tears in his eyes, he falls at Papa's feet)

Papa (patting him on the back): Don't lose courage. Be cheerful. God is with you. You have suffered much and that suffering must bring you the necessary help from the divine. You will have courage and a steady mind. The devotee got up, still sobbing, and left the room.

494. Maharaja's visit

7 p.m. The Maharaja of Bhavnagar was expected for the bhajan. In view of the visit, special arrangements were made in the ashram by the Kamdar family.

At 7.10 p.m. the Maharaja arrived with the members of his family. Papa rose to welcome them. The Maharaja garlanded Papa; the Maharani and the Yuvarani (her daughter-in-law) garlanded Mataji who was sitting few yards away from Papa. The Maharaja and his sons took their seats on the chairs provided. The ladies sat on the floor beside Mataji.

Maharaja (after garlanding Papa): This is the welcome to you. It has been a great pleasure to us all.

Papa: How are you? All right?

Maharaja: We are very pleased you have come and will be with us for....

Papa: We are going to stay for two months.

Maharaja: I am so delighted to hear that.

Papa: This place attracts us more than any other, because the love and devotion of the people here is unique.

Maharaja: Actually I remember you by your blessings. Last time when you gave your blessings to my son to pass his BA examination, he passed with credit. Now you will please bless our second son so that he may get married soon. I heard you had been on a tour round the world. How was the tour?

Papa: Everywhere we were received with great devotion and love and we had a very happy tour.

Maharaja: Which country impressed you most?

Papa: All countries. The same question was put to Ramdas by many friends. He cannot say one country is better than another. Everywhere he was received with love and affection.

Maharaja: Yes. We are very fortunate in having you here. Did you visit Russia?

Papa: No, we could not. We were told it was very cold there. We could not go as private body as there were many technical difficulties. Our visit had to be sponsored by the Government.

Maharaja: But your visit was sponsored by Ram! So they could not have raised any objection.

Papa: Ram produced certain favourable conditions. His ways are mysterious. It is by His will that we went round the world. Don't know why He did not take us to Russia. We covered 35,000 miles and we were on the air about 132 hours. We flew from one country to another. Only within the countries we travelled by car. We had round-the-world ticket and could travel by any airline. We wished to see the Pope, but could not get an audience because of his illness. We saw the St Peter's Church. Ramdas’ talks were taken down by Satchidananda who acted as secretary, and he has now typed out all the notes. We are publishing these talks in small volumes of a hundred pages each. Ramdas has written a book “World is God”. It contains all the details and incidents connected with the tour, together with pictures of all the important persons we met and who were our hosts. It is just out. We shall send you a copy.

Maharaja: I will get the whole set of books and read them.

Papa: People want to know what we did in the western countries. The latest book will give an idea. We had lectures, questions and answers, in Universities, YMCA and so forth.

Maharaja: My wife is so much delighted that you are here and she wants to take part in the bhajan every evening. She is enjoying the company of Mother Krishnabai very much. So my wife and children will be here regularly.

Papa: We will be exceedingly happy. You have drawn us here. That is why we have come.

Maharaja: Please bless the children.

Papa: All have the blessings of God.

Maharaja: Please come to my house and take meals with us one day.

Papa: Yes, we shall do so.

Maharaja: It will be a great joy for us. The season is also very good here. My wife is very fond of bhajan. Sai Sattar Shah is famous in these parts.

Sai Sattar Shah (Seated near Papa): My health is not very good.

Papa: Still he sings for us two or three songs everyday.

Sai Sattar Shah: The body gets ill some time or other.

Papa (after a few minutes): Taking Ram Nam, Ramdas went round the world. Everybody wanted to hear Ram Nam. Ramdas joined with them and sang Ram Nam. They wanted to sit with Ramdas for meditation. We all sat together for half an hour or so. We had this practice of meditation in almost all places. They all have read something of the Indian philosophy and put very intelligent questions. If they take up something, they do it seriously and never leave it half done.

Mukutbhai Kamdar came in and requested Papa and others to attend the bhajan which was about to start in the hall outside.

Maharaja: Yes, we have come for that. Let us go there.

They left after the bhajan. Papa gave the Maharaja the flower garlands brought by them, as prasad.

495. Mataji's pointer to realize truth in entirety

During bhajan Mataji and S remained in the room. Mataji tried to peep outside. S asked her why?

Mataji: I just looked to see where the Maharani is sitting. When Papa was talking to the Maharaja, she was all the while talking to me. This is the first time she ever talked so much to me. She sat very close to me and kept on talking. Only Chandrakalaben talks to me so. When she is near me she feels herself like a child. Though many others also move with me very closely, nobody else does like Chandrakalaben. When I say something and she does not understand it, she goes on asking me again and again its exact meaning.

S: What about your autobiography? When are you going to dictate? Should we not start sitting for it an hour everyday?

Mataji: My mind is still in the ashram. Whenever I try to think of something deeply, the thought of the ashram comes. Further, nobody understands my writings or talks. The same thing when said by some other saint, they understand. For example, I used to talk of various things to Anandi Nagarkatti. She was unable to make head or tail of what I said. Later when she went to Shirali and heard the pravachans of Swami Anandashram, she could understand my talk.

Now I talk about something in the affirmative; after sometime I talk about the same thing in the negative. People think that I am making contradictory statements or telling falsehood. Suppose I saw the back of a person, I can very well say that I saw that person. Can I not say also that I did not see him, since I did not see his face? So at one place I may say I saw him and at another place that I did not see him. In both cases I am right. But those who read it may feel I am telling a lie or that I am indulging in a loose argument. So when you note down my story, what you should do is this: whenever there is a possibility of such misunderstanding, you should immediately stop me there and then and ask questions to clarify the point.

S: Why not explain each point clearly?

Mataji: Certain problems may not strike me at all. You have to remind me when such points arise.

S: The notes taken down so far by Swami Krishnananda and MR Ramaswami were exactly as you told them. There were no questions at all. In the early days they were asking questions and the progress was slow. So they had to give up questioning.

Mataji: Because of that, you will see in many places the matter cannot be understood properly. My main concern is that what I write should help sadhakas. They should not have any doubt when they read it. All aspects of every point must be made quite clear. Suppose there is an ulcer in my hand. The bottom layer gives pain and the top does not. So I am right when I say it gives pain and I am right also when I say it does not give pain.

S: It is not only that we should understand, but all readers must understand. Unless we make every point clear, it will be difficult for them to understand.

Mataji: I feel it is not worthwhile writing. For what should we write? It is for the spiritual benefit of sadhakas. Papa has given us every convenience to advance on the path. When he took me on the path, he sent me to various houses to serve, so that I might quickly advance and realise that all are the forms of Papa. Now there is enough facility for all to serve in the ashram. But that is not taken advantage of. We have to widen our vision gradually first by accepting Papa as our own, then all in the ashram, and then the whole world. You all are not even prepared to accept the ashram as yours. How then can you go further and accept the world and universe as yours?

S: Is this acceptance not actual experience?

Mataji: But before you get the experience, you have to train your mind. Mind has a great power. You can gradually increase the circle of love from your mother, father, wife, children and so on to Papa who is the whole world, till you finally feel that the universe is Papa's form and that Papa is beyond that also. As you experience that you and Papa are one, you will realise that you are the entire universe.

S: The experience of that which is beyond the world comes first; then comes the experience of oneness with the world. Is it not so?

Mataji: Yes, but the mental acceptance that Papa is the whole universe leads you to the experience of the formless, nameless aspect of Papa. When you come down from that experience you also know that you are the whole universe. But this experience fades away. It takes some time before one is established in it. When one is established in the experience of the ‘nirguna’ aspect which is beyond all name, form and movement, one sees oneself as the universe. Until then, the experience comes and goes. It requires some effort to connect the manifest and the unmanifest aspects. It takes some time to realise that both are aspects of the same truth and that they co-exist.