← The Gospel of Swami RamdasHis talks, as recorded by Swami Satchidananda

1957-10-15

Chapter 55

Anandashram, October 15, 1957

563. Grace governed by lawless law

Papa was in his room with Mr and Mrs Hamilton.

RH: We have heard that God confers His grace on those whom He chooses. You say that grace is pouring always on us.

Papa: When we say God's grace has to come to us, it is like this. In the bright sun we sit with eyes closed and say there is no light. Closing the eyes, we deny the light and say we have no light. As soon as we open the eyes we see the light. The light did not come from anywhere afresh. It was there even when we had closed the eyes.

Ramdas will give you an example. Some dust falls into a man's eyes. He gets pain and irritation and consequently he is unhappy. He goes to the doctor who cleans the eyes and removes the dust particles. The man is free from pain and is happy again. Is that a newly earned happiness? The happiness was already there, but the man had forgotten it for the time being due to the falling of the dust in his eyes. So it is that, though ever in contact with God, we feel separate from Him, having forgotten our true being and nature, and therefore unhappy. A child playing near its mother happens to forget her presence and is very unhappy, but as soon as it is conscious that it is near its mother, it is again exceedingly happy. God is ever with us. When the remembrance or awareness of Him comes, we at once find out that he is with us always.

Suppose you have your purse in your pocket, but forget all about it, you feel upset and are unhappy. When you happen to put your hand in the pocket and feel the purse, you are happy. The happiness is not new. You have only recovered the happiness that was already there. In the same way, our union with God is an established fact, but we have forgotten this. This is what Hindu philosophy teaches us. The loss of happiness of the union with God is due to ignorance or whatever you may call it. How and why this ignorance came to us is the mystery. Why does the awareness of God come to some and not to others? That awareness itself is grace. We say grace has come to him. Grace is always there. He becomes aware of it now. When we are not aware of the grace, when we are not aware of our unity with God, we go about searching for eternal happiness in the external things, but not within ourselves. By doing so, we do not get that happiness and we make ourselves miserable, we have no reason to be. God is all-pervading. It is not that He is all-pervading only after we realise Him. The Kingdom of Heaven is not a thing available only at a particular time. It is there always. On the removal of the forgetfulness you become aware of Him. You remove forgetfulness by remembering Him through repetition of His name and meditating on Him. Then you find out that He is in you and you are He.

RH: Can all do that?

Papa: If they really aspire.

RH: Why is it then that God reveals Himself to some and not to others?

Papa: He chooses to reveal Himself in a particular body and there He reveals Himself.

RH: Is it that He chooses to awaken this one or that one because they have reached a point ready to be awakened?

Papa: There are so many trying to realise God, but do not succeed. Persons who never had any desire to realise Him, living a life of sin and so on, suddenly get His light.

MH: Like St Paul.

Papa: Yes, like St Paul.

RH: Why is that?

Papa: That is a mystery, the depth of which we cannot gauge. In this connection Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa gives a very apt illustration. God is like a child. Sometimes He may appear to be whimsical from our point of view. He has got His own way of doing things. Why He does so, our poor intellect cannot gauge. Ramdas remembers here the definition of God as given by Sri Aurobindo: 'God is an eternal child, playing an eternal game in an eternal garden.' Sri Ramakrishna says, a child has a beautiful toy. A man closely moving with the child, asks for the toy. But the child refuses. No amount of persuasion makes the child part with the toy. With all the close intimacy and friendship with the child, the man does not succeed in getting the toy. But the child sees a stranger passing by. He calls him and gives the toy away.

MH: Very nice. This reminds me of my Master. Once a great businessman, with a bloated ego, wanted to see the Master. He finally got an appointment with the Master. When he entered the room instead of seeing the Master, as he expected, sitting on a chair calm and serene, he found him playing with some toys as if to teach the business man, 'Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'.

Papa: Unless we become like children we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. We must be pure, childlike, innocent and guileless. Such children are the very embodiments of God. Their hearts are crystal pure. They have no ill will towards anybody. They are always cheerful. They have no idea of any difference in the world such as high or low, and so they love everybody alike. Such children are dear to God because God is like a child. When we surrender ourselves to Him, He makes us like Himself. There is a saying of a saint: 'The moment you surrender yourself to the Guru, what does the Guru do to you? Does he give anything? No. He makes you like himself.' Therefore, that saint says: ‘First of all you should hold the Guru's feet, and there will be no time lost before he makes you like himself.' That means, surrender yourself to Him, give up your ego, and that instant, you become God's own image, that is, you are the mould and God pours Himself into that mould.

RH: Guru being great, he can exercise his powers and make the disciple childlike.

Papa: So many go to the Guru and only one or two really get influenced by his contact. What is the basis or condition to get such influence, it is difficult to say. Those who stay with him, leading a fairly good life, do not seem to get anything. But a man who like the prodigal son has led a bad life, is embraced by the father with all love, so much so that the others become jealous. God is always for the redemption of those who are immersed in worldliness and suffer on that account. But we cannot say what law governs grace. It may be governed by a law which is a lawless law.

MH: The son who was with the father, perhaps because of his good qualities, had his ego bloated which had to be got rid of.

Papa: That's right. When the other one comes to the father in absolute surrender, the father welcomes him with open arms.

MH: The prodigal son can be compared to St Paul. Saul was speaking against God. He became Paul – which means little one or a new one on the spiritual path.

Papa: So, God's choice is not according to any set law. His will is supreme. He does what He pleases. We must bend and bow to His will. No question to be asked. Ramdas remembers here some beautiful lines he had read in the book ‘Light of Asia’ by Edwin Arnold, in which the life of Buddha and His teachings are given. Buddha says: 'Do not dip the string of thought into the unfathomable. He who questions errs and he who answers errs.' Do not question God why He does this and why He does not do that. It is better to bend ourselves before Him, submit to His will, become like Himself and then diffuse the knowledge which we have gained, to everybody, so that they will be brought nearer to Him.

MH: I understand you to say that God does not answer.

Papa: Not all questions.

564. Stage when no questions arise

MH: When you ask a true question, God does answer.

Papa: That stage is lower. There is a stage when you do not question at all. You have full trust in Him and your surrender is so complete that there is no question to be asked. Live as He wills, talk as He wills and do everything as He wills. Questions come when you have some doubts and when you want to know something, which means that duality still persists. The questioner must disappear.

MH: I had an experience of God telling me something specifically. It was true. Someone came to my house and questioned the statement God had made through me. So I asked God to give me an answer. I wanted only God to reveal it.

Papa: Sri Ramakrishna, who had surrendered completely to the Mother, was put questions and he was giving answers. He used to say that it was the Mother who gave the answers. Whenever there was no answer coming up to him he would wait, closing his eyes, and suddenly he would give the answer. He said that he was getting the supply from the Mother and he was only passing the answers to others just as a man measures out grains as he gets his supply passed on to him by another from behind. When the devotee feels, 'I am nothing and You are everything,' God answers him no doubt. But the devotee for himself has no doubts or questions to ask God.

MH: I don't have any.

Papa: So you may be only an instrument for answering the questions of devotees. It is not you who are doing it, but God does it through you. For yourself there is no question.

MH: I have complete faith. The person questioned me about the statement. Then I asked God how to explain to him. It was beautifully done.

565. “This body persists for their sake"

Papa: Jesus had said, 'For I came down from heaven not to do my will but the will of Him that sent me.' He also said, 'How is it that ye sought me? Wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business.'

Very often Ramdas tells these friends that he has attained everything and now this body works for them all. He has no hankering in life, to get any name or fame, nor has he to fulfil any desire. He is full. He is purna; complete. There is nothing lacking so far as he is concerned. He is full of bliss, whether things come or go, whether he gets anything or not, whether people speak ill or well of him. He is not disturbed, His heart is full of divine love and joy. That is enough. What is there further for him to do? The body persists. It is for their sake. They therefore say that this body belongs to them and that they would take care of it and Ramdas must submit to any treatment or medication done to protect the body. Ramdas tells them again: 'This body is yours. You can make use of it in any way. But do not seek from him any material benefit. Ask only for the things of the spirit. Let your goal be God. Seek to reach Him and make use of Ramdas for it, but not for getting the earthly baubles of wealth, name, fame and so on. You may be wealthy, but if you have no faith in God, you are poor. You may be outwardly poor but if you have faith in God, you are the richest person in the world. So make use of Ramdas for achieving the highest thing in life, that is, God'.

566. Disciplines help only indirectly

Papa's room – Mr and Mrs Hamilton were with Papa.

MH: I want God only.

Papa: Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and everything else will be added unto you.

MH: What do you say to this...?

Papa: This is what Ramdas tells everybody who comes to him.

RH: Is it that one has to go through a series of troubles, ceremonies, and so on, step by step, before one can realise God?

Papa: All that is done to know the greatness of grace. We do not admit it easily. When we pass through many disciplines in order to realise Him, we find ourselves helpless, because we have not achieved anything. Then it is that we surrender ourselves to Him, because He is the friend of the helpless. Unless we become helpless He will not be our helper. To make ourselves realise that we are helpless, we have to pass through all these disciplines. These disciplines by themselves will not enable us to achieve anything. Indirectly they will make us feel helpless.

MH: Is it not true that by discipline you gain some powers and they stand in the way of your progress? At the same time, discipline is necessary to get rid of the ego.

Papa: You must feel, 'Oh God, by myself I cannot do anything. I must progress by your strength and grace alone.' To attain to this stage some discipline is necessary. The ego is a terrible fellow. You have to give him a long rope and let him hang himself. Then he will say he is absolutely nothing. He becomes humble. In meekness and humility you find God. But the ego will not bend so easily. He pretends that he is a very humble devotee, but he inwardly knows it is only pride aping humility. This is the case with so many.

We must not care about the powers we get by disciplines. Our aim should be realisation of God and nothing less. Then we are safe. With this end in view we struggle and struggle.

It is very clear from the story of the two frogs in a pot of curds that you must churn, churn and churn, and stop. Then butter is formed, which will release you. You struggle for a while and afterwards give up the struggle by utter surrender to the will of God. In that state of surrender you get Him, but not by merely struggling. Struggle is a sure condition of progress. Struggle must cease in a state of surrender.

567. Powers are to be rejected

MH: What I meant to say was this. There are certain Mantras which are used for concentrating upon God alone. But there are other Mantras also that are used for attaining certain powers for the control of certain elements.

Papa: We must see that our ego is dissolved through spiritual practices. Our object is that, but the ego seeks powers, it wants to exult over itself, it wants self-importance. We must humble ourselves to the dust before we can have Him. We must pay the full price, which means entire surrender of everything. Our powers, desires, aspirations, everything we must lay at His feet. Then alone He becomes ours. There is no doubt about it. Powers are nothing, siddhis are nothing. To show some miracles here and there is very bad. You should not run after powers. But there is a state which Jesus Christ had reached in which divine power used to flow through him and miracles were performed automatically.

MH: That is 'seek first the Kingdom of Heaven'.

Papa: Yes. If the powers come to you on the way, reject them and once you have gained the goal, these powers become your slaves.

RH: If the Masters permit their disciples to take such Mantras in order to gain powers, are they not deluding the students, as their progress will be hampered by such practices?

Papa: Yes. They are misleading them. The path must be straight to Him.

MH: I will tell you an incident that happened. A woman had a pain in her shoulders and she was directed to a master who had this type of Mantra. She was to repeat the Mantra one thousand times daily for forty-five days. A ceremony was performed when the chanting of the Mantra began with the sprinkling of rice and so on. It was said that if that Mantra was repeated for forty-five days, all the individuals who had gone to God by that Mantra would be forced to come to the aid of that individual and heal her.

Papa: That is a very strange thing. Why should not God's power be made to come to that person directly and cure her of the trouble? Why does one have to catch hold this person and that person? Ramdas does not believe in that...

MH: I am glad that you say so.

568. See God in all

The loving conversation was kept up uninterruptedly till Lingappa brought refreshments for Papa and others.

RH (to S): Is that pen all right?

MH: May we give you a pen?

S: Thanks. I can manage with this.

Papa: Why should you hesitate to have it? After all, it is God giving God. In this connection Ramdas remembers when some new visitors come here, they ask us what type of pooja we do and where the images of worship are. We tell them that our worship is of the living gods, who come here as visitors or devotees. So we are all gods. Are we not?

MH: God is in everybody. But some persons are living a pure life while some are not.

Papa: You have to see God in them too. When you say you see God everywhere you will be incapable of seeing evil at all.

Other friends stepped in to listen. Papa introduced Sadhu Bhandasji to them as a saint from Kutch. Bhandasji does not speak English. So the Hamiltons could not enter into any conversation with him. Noticing that Bhandasji was sitting on the floor, Papa told him in Hindi: "You are sitting on the floor while we are sitting on the chairs. You have to kindly excuse us."

Sadhu Bhandasji: That does not matter.

Papa: All of you are gods. Ramdas is the servant of God.

MH: Suddenly God becomes the servant.

Papa: Master is God. Servant is God. He plays all parts. This is His lila. This is not maya. Devotees take it as lila or play of God. World is a stage. Ramdas remembers what Shakespeare has said in this connection.

Papa got up and took the shelf the book, ‘World is God’, opened it, turned a few pages and read out:

"All the world's a stage All the men and women merely players, They have their exits and their entrances."

Continuing, Papa said, "Ramdas will read out for you something that he wrote many years ago. (to S): Please get the book ‘Divine Life’ from the shelf in the bhajan-hall."

Papa opened the book and read the article 'Divine Alchemy'. He read fast, all listening with rapt attention. Papa was often raising his head and looking straight at their faces with a broad smile every time, perhaps with a view to seeing how they responded. The whole article was read out. Papa raised his head again and looked at them now with a broader smile and for a longer time. It looked as if a child was looking at the mother to get her appreciation for having done something great.

The Hamiltons said: "How nice!"

Papa: Ramdas wrote, or rather Ram made him write this twenty years ago and since then his life is being worked out on those lines.

October 15, 1957

569. Image worship

Papa, the Hamiltons, Sadhu Bhandasji and others were sitting in Papa's room.

RH: Is God not far away from all the things that are being done in temples and what we call ceremonies?

Papa: They are immersed in so many things that God seems to be very far away from them. Those who are engaged in such worship and rituals are like infants in kindergarten. They must realise God within them.

MH: Will it take centuries and centuries for them to get out of the kindergarten and know the truth within them?

Papa: Instead of playing with fire, is it not better to play with cool things? At least these people are engaged in various things in the name of God. On the other hand, there are many who are deeply immersed in worldly enjoyment and never remember God. Their plight is terrible. The image worshippers may carry on their worship and a time will come when they will throw off everything and go up. God is their aspiration, although they are seeking Him in things that cannot give them that blessed state. But those who do not have even this type of devotion, sink deeper and deeper into the worldly mire, as it were, passing through suffering, sorrow and grief.

RH: Will God not send a messenger to them?

Papa: Yes, God will send a messenger and raise them. Buddha was one of them. When he came, Hinduism was in a degenerate state. People were immersed in rituals. He washed away everything and asked people to be pure in thought, word and deed, so as to find the Truth within themselves. So also Jesus saw the degeneration in religion. He washed away everything and taught people the way to realise God.

MH: Krishna did the same thing.

Papa: Krishna in the ‘Bhagavad Gita’ teaches no God outside ourselves. He says, 'I stay in the heart of everybody. Realise Me there. Surrender yourself to Me, giving up all other paths. Abandoning all duties, take refuge in Me alone. I will liberate thee from all sins, grieve not.' Jesus said, 'I am the way, the truth and the life. No man can go to the Father except through Me.' The ‘I' mentioned by Krishna and the 'I' mentioned by Jesus are one and the same. It is God speaking through them in different forms.

MH: I am told that worship of Krishna is degenerating in India.

Papa: You will find degeneration everywhere. People are living an immoral life. So, degeneration in religion is inevitable. But there will be some revival when some great soul comes and awakens people to the reality of things. Such souls do come from time to time.

MH: If we can take all the sects away from religion and just worship God saying 'I am God's child', that day there will be peace on earth.

Papa: Exactly.

MH: Jesus came to teach universal religion. When they started the Roman Catholic religion, they took Christ away from catholicism.

Papa: Perfectly true.

570. Buddha and Christ

RH: What did Buddha say? What was his pure original teaching?

Papa: He did not preach in that way. He said he was taking people from darkness to light when he was guiding them towards Reality. The way taught by him was through purification of oneself. He emphasised a pure and moral life as the basis of a truly spiritual life. He said there are ten evils in men to be conquered. They are three of the mind, four of the tongue and three of the body. The three evils of the mind are: envy, scepticism and wrath; the four of the tongue are: lying, gossiping, abusing and slandering; the three evils of the body are: violence, adultery and stealing. As God is indefinable, Buddha did not try to define Him. He calls the absolute state of freedom from the thraldom of desires ‘NIRVANA’.

RH: But how did he teach his followers?

Papa: He asked them to follow certain disciplines, to love and serve all fellow beings. When one is trying to purify oneself this way, one cannot but be kind and loving to everyone. Buddha believed in practical religion, He insisted on offering love to everybody. Jesus Christ taught the same thing – 'Love thy enemy'. In the case of Buddha, he said: 'Give love for hate', which means the same.

RH: Christ taught ahimsa also. He said one must forgive others their mistakes, not merely seven times but seventy times seven. People are tired of being preached at. They want to be shown something to do, some kind of discipline to be followed.

571. Love triumphs

Papa: Such preaching must go. They will not discipline themselves unless they feel the urge. The best thing is not to preach, but to live that real life yourself. Then people who come into contact with you, watching your own life, will be transformed. So, contact of saints is the most important thing. You will find that when you are in the company of saints, you are changed within. There, you do not feel inclined to do wrong things at all, whereas you might have been doing many evil acts before. Your heart becomes so full of compassion that though you were a miser before, not prepared to spend a cent for others, now you are ready to spend money in the service of others freely.

RH: What about the Christian ministers and priests?

Papa: Most of them do not practise what they preach. If they themselves practise at least for one or two years, they will get tremendous spiritual power which can produce the required transformation in those who hear them.

MH: We cannot give God to someone else unless we have found Him ourselves.

Papa: A beggar cannot be a giver. A rich man can alone be a giver. You must find God yourself first. Then only you have the right to teach others.

MH: The emphasis today in Christianity is on sins. They do not concentrate upon God. They only think of the evil and try to get rid of it. Every time you concentrate upon evil, you get your mind away from God and produce a state of war within yourself. I feel we must concentrate on God alone.

Papa: You are right. We should concentrate on God alone.

MH: People are trying to find some fault in others.

Papa: Instead of seeing and concentrating upon goodness and God, if people concentrate on evil, the evil in them naturally gets stronger. If they see goodness or God everywhere they fill their hearts with God. If we see others’ faults we will be far away from God.

RH: What will happen to those who are evil?

Papa: If we love them the evil will leave them. Once it happened that many years ago, in the ashram where Ramdas was before, a man was coming to see Ramdas. In advance another man came and informed Ramdas that a very bad and evil person was coming to the ashram and that Ramdas should not see or talk to him, or allow him inside. Ramdas did not listen to the friend's advice. Soon afterwards, the so-called evil man came. As soon as he came near Ramdas, Ramdas embraced him with all love. That man fell at Ramdas’ feet and wept repenting for his evil deeds. He was saying how sinful he was, how great and holy was Ramdas and still how Ramdas condescended to embrace him. All the evil left him and he became a changed man. If you see God in them, God will reveal Himself in their hearts. You must, in spite of all their defects, love them. That is how God loves us. If He sees our defects, He will not touch us even with a pair of tongs. A child becomes dirty by playing in mud. It goes to its mother. The mother does not reject the child. She washes the child of all the dirt and gives it clean clothes. So when we approach God with all our weaknesses, He does not reject us. He accepts us, purifies us and makes us His own. Therefore, we say God is love. He who dwells in love dwells in God and God dwells in him.

MH: That is absolutely true. But the evil-doers say that God being absolute and all-comprehensive, the so-called evil also is born of God.

Papa: There cannot be any evil in God. Can there be darkness in the sun? Evil is man's own property.

MH: Man has done a very good job of making evil.

Papa: Denial of God is the sin and evil. God is all purity, love, peace and joy.

It was about 3.45 p.m. Papa had to get ready for the next programme of reading and translating ‘Ramdas Speaks’ to the mothers.

RH: Papa, you have been talking for a long time. You have again to read from 4 o'clock. Are you not tired?

Papa: No. That is his job. (All laugh)

RH: Has God also a job? (Papa laughs again)

October 16, 1957

572. Potency of Guru's grace

It was 2 p.m. Mr and Mrs Hamilton came to Papa's room. Mildred saw Bhaskaran pulling the punkha and something on his face attracted her attention. She asked him: "What is it on your face?" Bhaskaran did not know English. So he could not reply. S asked him the same question in Malayalam and he told MH that it was an insect bite.

MH: Oh, insect bite! This is the day to talk about insects. You find a lot of them. I find some coming to our rooms...

Papa: When speaking about insects, Ramdas will tell you something. There is an insect called bhramara. Its work is to transform some other kind of insect into its likeness. It catches hold of some stray insect and places it before it and gives a sting. Then it intently gazes and gazes at the insect. The insect also gazes at the bhramara as it is frightened by the sting. So they go on looking at each other. When the insect turns its gaze away, the bhramara gives it another sting and makes it gaze again. The result of this process is that the other insect changes itself into bhramara. Sometimes it so happens that the bhramara picks up a wrong insect and so fails to convert it and throws it away. Only the right type of insects are converted. This is known as ‘Bhramara Keeta Nyaya’ in Vedantic parlance. Such should be the relationship between Guru and disciple. The Guru gazes at the disciple, pours his grace on him and converts him into his own likeness. That is the type of transformation that takes place in the disciple by the contact of the Guru.

573. Insects and snakes

MH: The reason why I took up the question of insects is that in America we are very conscious of the insects because we have been warned against them. These insects cause the spread of bacteria and various diseases. These diseases hinder the progress of an individual in his efforts to attain God. So is it all right to do away with them completely?

Papa: Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa used to sleep under a mosquito-net as there were plenty of mosquitoes in Calcutta, especially on the banks of the Ganges. Thus he was able to prevent mosquito bites and could avoid killing them.

MH: Papa, this is wonderful. With whatever I feel about, you agree.

Papa: There is authority for it. If we do not kill them they will eat up our body. What kind of meditation can we have when mosquitoes and bugs are biting us? Here in the ashram we kill the mosquitoes by spraying ‘flit’.

RH: There are some people in India who do not kill any insect. This news spreads around and a lot of people in America can be heard talking that in India nobody kills bugs or other insects and so they wonder how people live in India.

Papa: Some do not kill. They say that their religion does not allow killing of any type. But the fun of it is that though they abstain from killing bugs, they freely exploit people by taking heavy interest on loans and thus reduce them to a state of beggary. Wantonly you should not kill. If you see any ant on your way you need not or should not kill it. But when the ants come to trouble you persistently, you are justified in killing them. There are some people who are so cruel in their nature that they take delight in killing. That is no good. When you are harmed by insects then it is permissible to kill them.

MH: What about snakes?

Papa: Here there are many snakes and if they are poisonous they are killed. If we know that they are not venomous, we let them go. It is dangerous to allow venomous snakes to move about in the ashram where there are many people including children. It is better to despatch them to the other world so that they may get a better birth next life. It is believed that those who die here will get better birth because of the spiritual atmosphere. Better life means evolution to a higher life.

MH: If man is a higher creation, those who stand in the way of his progress must be disposed of.

Papa: Ramdas read in the newspaper yesterday about a young boy, who has around his body, neck and shoulders, very big snakes, some of which are venomous. Strangely, it seems that when they go to him, they do not harm him. The boy must have some power in him that makes the snakes friendly with him. Ramdas had the experience of a serpent winding round his leg and licking his toe. No harm was done to him. Ramdas saw Ram in it. When Ramdas looked down, the serpent was slowly unwinding itself and was going away. Ramdas called it back. But it did not come. It came on the subsequent days and looked at Ramdas from a corner. It could not come near him as there were many people with Ramdas.

574. On fear

MH: I was thrilled to read your experience during your travels in the Himalayas, where you were entering big caves and shouting 'Hari OM' to see if there were any wild animals in them.

Papa: Ramdas had no fear at all. He wanted to see some wild animals face to face, but could only see them at a distance. Ramdas saw Ram in them and loved them. Where there is love there is no fear.

RH: Fear is mostly imaginary and unnecessary. It causes a tremendous amount of trouble, agony and worry all through the world.

Papa: When you feel there is something other than yourself, there is fear. When there is nothing other than yourself, whom are you to be afraid of?

MH: There are only a few who have attained that high stage.

Papa: Only for such people there is no fear. For all others there is fear. Even in the case of those who have realised that there is nothing other than themselves, a sort of fear seems to persist. That is only a nervous reaction. Somehow they are perturbed when they see something fearful or dangerous. A little later they are surprised and wonder why and whom they are afraid of, when everywhere there is none other than themselves or God.

Still why should this body react like that? This fear is only a reaction of the nerves, not of the heart or mind. Some people who have conquered that also, are absolutely fearless.

RH: Some are afraid because they imagine so many things.

Papa: When fear is in the mind, the person is weak. Ramdas in his old life, that is before God took him up, was afraid of snakes. But later when the serpent wound round his leg he was in divine ecstasy. He was not at all afraid. On the other hand, he was happy when the snake was there. Ramdas extolled it to the skies for its love for him. Many people have asked Ramdas why God created wild beasts, snakes and other insects. Ramdas’ answer to them was: 'If the wild animals and insects could speak, they would ask what business God had in creating man who kills them'.

575. Limits to ahimsa

MH: What about mosquitoes?

Papa: We cannot practise ahimsa to its extreme. Mahatma Gandhi was a votary of ahimsa. Once in his ashram at Sabarmati a serpent came inside and was killed by a sannyasi who belonged to the Arya Samaj but was with Gandhiji then. When Gandhiji came to know of the incident, he asked the sannyasi why he killed the serpent when the rule in the ashram was to practise ahimsa. The sannyasi replied that the serpent was venomous and, if let free, would bite the ashramites. But Gandhiji held to his own opinion that killing the serpent was a mistake, and that the sannyasi ought to have refrained; and that such persons had no place in his ashram. Soon after the sannyasi left the ashram. Some years later Mahatma Gandhi started his campaign and the British Government arrested him and put him in jail. There he developed appendicitis and had to undergo an operation. One day after the operation, this sannyasi went to see him at the hospital and asked Gandhiji, "What is it that you have done? By getting operated you have allowed many bacilli to be killed and destroyed. Why did you permit it?" He thus got an occasion to corner Mahatmaji. Do you know what reply Gandhiji gave? That he was afraid of death. You will find it is easy to preach but most difficult to practise. Non-violence is not non-violence in all conditions. We should not deliberately harm anybody. Some people rejoice at the sufferings of others. That should not be our nature. Suppose there are people or animals who are in distress. Let us help them. Let us love them. But if you see serpents going inside houses and biting people, then you should send the serpents away, not outside merely, but to the other world. Otherwise the serpent will send you all to the other world, if there is an other world.

576. Microcosm and Macrocosm are one

MH: Is there an other world?

Papa: The whole thing is within you. You are the all-pervading and eternal Reality. In that all the worlds are contained. In that sense there is no world outside us. Therefore, Ramdas says, there is heaven, there is hell and there is purgatory. But all these are within ourselves.

MH: Is that also not without? We are the microcosm and the universe is the macrocosm.

Papa: Microcosm and macrocosm are one. Jiva and Shiva are one. Individual soul and the cosmic soul are one. They are not different. But we make a difference between them. That is ignorance. So everything is within us. The cowherds complained to Yasoda that her foster-child Sri Krishna had eaten mud. Taking Krishna by the hand and chiding him, the mother asked, 'Why did you eat mud?' Thereupon Krishna protested and denied the charge and opened his mouth for her to see. The mother saw the whole universe in it and was aghast. God fills the universe and is also beyond it. Such a God is within us. Then, is not the universe within us?

MH: I know microcosm and macrocosm are one. But they are separate also. Do not all the parts make the whole?

Papa: So long as you think you are the individual soul you see the whole world outside you. When you know God is within you, then all the worlds are within you.

MH: I know that. Still I see them outside.

Papa: You can see them within and without. You have projected yourself as the universe. So you are everything and everything is in you.