← The Gospel of Swami RamdasHis talks, as recorded by Swami Satchidananda

1957-09-22

Chapter 53

Anandashram, September 22, 1957

550. Mataji on Sadhana

An American lady, Mrs Frances Cassard, had been in the ashram for the past few days. In the afternoon when Mataji was on her usual rounds, Mrs Cassard saw her and called her in. The following conversation ensured.

FC: Can we attain God-realisation living in our own houses and doing the normal household or other duties?

Mataji: Yes, it is possible for you. But you must have intense aspiration to realise God and you must work hard to reach the goal.

FC: I was reading Mataji's life-sketch and I was particularly interested to read that portion relating to your leaving your two sons.... Why had you to come away from them?

Mataji: I did not really come away from them. My coming from there to the ashram was like my moving in my own house from one room to another. Papa had prepared my mind to such an extent that I found no difference between home and the world. When a person has reached such a stage, it does not matter where he lives and works.

FC: Does Mataji also say that one should not leave home for the purpose of doing spiritual practices?

Mataji: It will be better if one remains at home and does sadhana. There are many dangers for one outside the house.

FC: You said that you were feeling only as if going from one room to another when you came away to the ashram. May I ask why it was necessary for you to come out of that room (your home) at all?

Mataji: Nobody can stay in one room all through life. Unless he is sick, he will move out into all the rooms for his work. Perhaps it was not clear when I gave the example of the rooms. Let me explain. Suppose I have a house consisting of four or five rooms. I consider that that small house alone belongs to me and nothing else. If my vision expands, I will be able to accept the whole universe as my own. Instead of the small house remaining as my only possession, the universe now becomes mine. So, going from one place to another in the world, which I have realised as my own, is only like going from one room of my house to another.

FC: Should we have some symbols like pictures, images, and so on for worship?

Mataji: The use of external forms will give you only very little help to advance on the path. You have to go beyond all external forms of worship. I shall explain to you what Papa taught me.

FC: My students in Japan sometimes feel that I might have had high spiritual experiences. Their condition at present is very bad as they are just recovering from the effects of the war. They have to find suitable jobs, earn money to look after their aged parents and other dependents. They also want to know something about God. What should I tell them?

Mataji: Except for certain fundamentals, spiritual instructions to individuals vary according to their nature and temperament. Each one requires specific instructions based, of course, on the fundamental principles. You see here we serve rice for all as a common item of food. Other preparations that are added to rice vary according to individual tastes. So also in regard to spiritual life, certain general instructions will be common. I can tell you about such general instructions only. Repetition of Ram Nam, God's name, is the one discipline applicable to all in general. It must be noted that nothing can be achieved without effort and concentration. If one has to pass an examination in certain subjects he has to study well, concentrate his mind and all his energy on such study. If one wants to prepare some good food, there also concentration and application to the work are necessary. Therefore it follows that those have the aspiration to realise God must put their heart and soul into their effort to attain their goal, and do all actions as His worship.

FC: In repeating God's name there is one difficulty. Buddhists call on Buddha, Muslims on Mohammed, Christians on Christ. These prophets are taken to be the manifestations of God, the supreme Being. They may repeat the name of Buddha, Mohammed or Christ, but do you think it would be better to repeat the name of God, instead of these manifestations of God? What should they do?

Mataji: By 'Ram Nam' I do not mean any particular name; I mean only the name of God. Followers of different faiths may take the names of the masters or incarnations they worship. God is the supreme Being who is unmanifest and also manifest. His manifestation is everything that is seen, heard, felt, thought of and so on. He is at the same time beyond all manifestations. God and His manifestations are one. If you repeat the name of the manifestation, it is as good as repeating the name of God. But you must bear in mind that what you repeat is not the name of a mere person, but of one who is the manifestation of God, nay, of God himself.

FC: How am I to tell all these to my students? They may not understand.

Mataji: What do you teach to a small child? You first make it understand the names of its limbs – legs, hands and so forth. To the grown-up child you give advanced lessons. So also for those who have not studied the fundamentals of spiritual life, you have to give lessons on the rudiments, from the very beginning. You may ask them to take to the repetition of the name of God. By such repetition they will gradually progress on the path and get higher experiences for themselves. You do not thrust upon lower class students all that you have studied at college. You tell them what they can understand at their level. Gradually, they will be able to grasp all that you have to teach. This principle applies to spiritual instructions as well.

When you have the experience that you are a universal being, the problem of teaching 'another' does not really arise. Then whatever you do is for yourself and not for 'another', because the so-called 'another' also is yourself. You touch your head while dressing your hair and you touch any other part of your body whenever an occasion demands it. Whatever part of the body you touch, you feel you are touching only yourself. So also when you teach, help or serve others, you will feel that you are teaching, helping or serving yourself. In the experience of the universal, the sense of 'other' goes. It is immaterial then whether you engage yourself in work or not. You will be acting in the natural course as you attend now to the needs of your body. When you feel thirsty you drink water. The same spontaneity will mark your attitude in regard to all activities.

FC: I have been having a very happy time here. I have to leave soon, as I should reach Tokyo next week. I would have loved to stay here longer. I will be in Tokyo for another two years. After that I do not know what I will be doing. But I like to be in India. Anyway, on my way back from Japan, I will visit India again.

Mataji: Then you can spend more time here. Now, as you are in a hurry, it would be better that you go to Tokyo and think there of Papa, than stay here and think of your work in Tokyo. Further do not make any distinction between India and other countries.

FC: Do you mean to say that I should stay in Tokyo, sit in a room, close my eyes and feel that I am in the ashram here in India?

Mataji: That is not what I mean. When your mind is drawn inward, you do not feel concerned as to which part of the world you live in and work, because then you find the whole world as one unit. It is all the same for you wherever you live and work.

September 29, 1957

551. Farewells

It was past 8 a.m. Papa was already seated under the banyan tree. Achint Ram, who had been sitting for a long time in the bhajan-hall, came to Papa along with S and two others. He could not sit long with Papa that day as it was time for his departure. He offered a five-rupee note to Papa, saying. "This is guru-dakshina from my father." Papa accepted it saying: "Yes, your father used to send this amount regularly."

Achint Ram: My father will be happy to know that I have come here. As soon as I return home and tell him of my visit here, he would surely ask me if I had paid the guru-dakshina. My father is very old now. His memory also fails him at times. My prayer is that I should not see him suffering.

Papa: It is painful to see him suffering.

Achint Ram: You told me everything yesterday. The trouble with me is this. I understand aright everything, I understand philosophy all right, but it is purely an intellectual grasp. It is not any deeper.

Papa: It must develop into experience. By constantly thinking and meditating upon the Truth, you experience it. You have to experience Satchidananda.

Achint Ram: Satchidananda is sitting here.

Papa (laughing): That is a nice joke! But you see Satchidananda outside. You have to see Him within.

Achint Ram, after a few more minutes' conversation about his connection with the Swami of Dayalbagh, asked if Papa had any objection to his repeating any Mantra other than ‘Om Sri Ram Jai Ram Jai Jai Ram’.

Papa: All Mantras are equally powerful.

As Achint Ram wanted to see the office and goshala, Papa suggested that he might be shown round. S took him to the office and goshala. When they returned, the car was ready.

Papa: Now you must go. It is time. You could not see the houses built by the ashram for the workers.

Achint Ram: I wanted to see them. I wish every worker gets two acres of land and a house.

S: I shall show him the house which is under construction near the SK Vidyalaya. He can get an idea.

Papa: Yes, that will be all right. Then you may also get into the car.

Achint Ram: I am now leaving. I shall be writing some time.

Papa: Ramdas has stopped all correspondence. But Satchidananda will reply on Ramdas’ behalf.

Achint Ram: That is all right. Now may I take my leave?

S also went with him up to the Vidyalaya compound where they stopped for a while to see the house for Savitri Amma, under construction. Achint Ram was much impressed with the plan of the house and area of the compound behind the house. He wished that similar houses could be provided for all workers. He was working in the Bhoodan movement and was happy to see that the ashram had already started the scheme.

September 30, 1957

As usual, after 8.30 a.m. Papa and S were sitting under the banyan tree. Sundaram, his wife and daughters were coming from the bhajan-hall to spend some time with Papa as they were to go back to Aruvankadu that evening. Seeing them coming, Papa remarked in a tone loud enough to be heard by Sundaram: "The cock, hen and the chicks have come. Come on, sit down."

Sundaram laughed and said: "In various bright colours, pancha varna." All the daughters, Sundaram and his wife prostrated before Papa and sat down on the mat.

Sundaram: We have to leave this evening.

Papa: Who is going and who is coming? You are really not going or coming. Going and coming relate only to the body. Why do you identify yourself with the perishable body? You are the eternal, infinite, changeless Brahman. Identify your-self with That – with your Krishna.

Sundaram: However much I may try to identify myself with my true Being, the mind sometimes wants to dwell on the perishable.

Papa: You should not allow it to do that. You are not the mind; you are not the body; you are the Supreme Brahman, who neither goes nor comes.

Just then a sadhu came near Papa and bowed before him.

Papa: Where are you coming from?

Sadhu: I am now coming from Nileshwar.

Papa: What have you come for? Go in.

Sadhu: Please teach me bhakti.

Papa: Ramdas knows only to eat and sleep. He does not know bhakti. How can he teach you?

The sadhu was aghast. He stood for a while.

Papa: If you want to learn bhakti you may go to the bhajan-hall there and sit, listening to the Ram Nam dhun going on.

The sadhu went to the bhajan-hall.

October 3, 1957

552. Visitors expected

10 p.m. Papa's room. Papa was resting. The lights were off. Mataji was sitting near Papa's cot writing Ram Nam, with a hurricane lantern before her. Motiben was sitting by Mataji. Gopal was busy with some small items of work.

In the evening Papa received a letter from Ramjee Arjun, a devotee in Coimbatore, saying that Sadhu Bhandasji of Kutch proposed to visit the ashram and that he would also accompany him either the next day or the day after. There was also another letter from Yogacharya Mildred Hamilton of Seattle, USA, that she and her husband, Rev Ralph B Hamilton would be landing at Trichy on the 13th and would be reaching the ashram on the 14th. They had taken visa for a stay of about a year in India.

Papa (to Mataji): A Swami is coming from Coimbatore tomorrow or the day after. He is from Kutch. It is a great privilege to us that great mahatmas have been gracious enough to come and stay with us. Vinobaji came; and again last month Mai Swarup came. This month Bhandasji is coming. We have requested Swami Omkar also to come. What a happy thing to receive and serve saints! Swami Siddhananda, who came from Palghat, also writes that he so much likes ashram that he goes on telling all his friends about the ashram, and himself wishes to come here as soon as possible. But the beauty is that those who are here wish to go to other places! What does it mean?

Mataji only smiled, but did not give any reply.

S: Papa, it seems Vinobaji is very happy that he came here. In his talks during the big conference near Mysore, he was referring to his visit here.

Papa: Is that so? Our Mai Swarup also felt very happy when he came. He may also tell his friends that he enjoyed his visit here. So the name of our ashram is spreading! (to Mataji): The Hamiltons are also coming soon. Do you know what they told the press reporter before they left Seattle?"

Mataji: What?

Papa: They told him they were going to India to see a great saint, a rishi, in Anandashram. It seems that saint is the greatest living saint in South India, nay, India or the whole world. Is it true?

Mataji simply laughed.

Papa: Gopal, do you know him? It seems he is here. Can you find him out?

All had a good laugh. Gopal had by that time finished his work and was sitting near Papa's cot. He did not say anything.

Papa: When such things are told by others, Gopal's admiration for Ramdas increases. He then thinks that when all these people talk so highly of Ramdas, he must be really great.

There was a peal of laughter.

Gopal: If Ramaswami (MR Ramaswami Iyer) were here he would have published in ‘The Vision’ what is announced by that Seattle newspaper, a cutting of which has been sent by Mildred Hamilton.

Papa: Now Krishnananda Swami is here looking after the journal work. He may publish the matter. But why do you talk about others' publishing the matter? Are you interested in publishing it?

Gopal: My interest is of no importance.

Papa: You can suggest.

Gopal: My suggestion has no value at all.

Mataji completed her Ram Nam writing. The lantern was removed and all retired.

October 5, 1957

553. Spirit of service

Papa and S together left the office at 8.45 a.m. and walked towards the old kitchen, in front of which there was a small pandal put up for some creepers of kakri (small cucumber). That year the yield was abundant. Papa went under the pandal and looked for some tender fruits. He himself plucked one and gave to S who also plucked another. They saw a few more tender ones but Papa did not want to pluck them that day. He said: "Ramdas will take then day after tomorrow. He will eat these only on alternate days."

On return, the kakri fruits were handed over to Rukmabai who was coming towards Papa with a plate containing a few vegetables for him to choose what he would have for lunch. He gave suggestions and turned towards the bhajan-hall. S was following him, holding an umbrella.

A chair had already been brought and kept for Papa under the banyan tree. Papa sat on it. CS Krishna Iyer of Chittur, who had come for Mataji's birthday, was still in the ashram. He wished to stay on for a long period. He was very quiet and engaged himself most of the time in reading scriptures, repeating Ram Nam and such other sadhana. Krishna Iyer came near Papa holding a wet towel in his hand. Apparently he had his bath only a few minutes back. It was unusual for him to go near Papa like that, holding a wet towel. Seeing him drawing near, S asked: "Krishna Iyer, you have perhaps just finished bath. What is the matter?"

Krishna Iyer: I just finished my bath. I came here to know if Papa and Mataji were disturbed early in the morning by my reading.

S (to Papa): Papa every morning Krishna Iyer reads some slokas, sings Kirtans, and so on. This morning it seems X told him that Papa got up earlier, being disturbed by his loud reading, and that it would be better for him to do his reading in some other room. Was Papa really disturbed?

Papa (to Krishna Iyer): Not at all. Even last night Ramdas decided to get up early this morning to wake up Ramkishor and ask him to play the violin. He did not hear your reading at all. You may go on with your reading. Even if we hear, it will not disturb us. Mataji was sleeping in spite of the noise of the violin in the room. X is our manager. He sometimes wants to boss over us also. Y is also of the same type. X had absolutely no business to come and tell you before ascertaining from us if we were really disturbed.

Krishna Iyer: I am not telling this as a complaint against X. I wanted to ascertain if Papa was disturbed.

Papa: Ramdas understands you.

Krishna Iyer went to his room. Before long, X came out of his room and was approaching Papa. Seeing him, Papa said in a fairly loud voice so as to be audible to X also at a distance: "Our yajaman (master) is coming." X understood the joke. His face became pale. He came near and stood quiet.

Papa: You are our manager, are you not? What business had you to go and tell Krishna Iyer this morning that Ramdas and Mataji were disturbed by his reading in the early hours of the morning? Last night itself we had decided to get up early. Before you told him, you never said a word about it to us. Even if we were disturbed, you had no business to go and tell him that. It was our business. You took upon yourself the authority to tell him not to read in his room. Is this the way you serve our visitors? This is not service, but bossing. Under the guise of service you are doing such things. Y is also of the same type. He pokes his nose into everything in the office. Often he gets scolding from Balaji for this. Still he continues. He gives suggestions to Ramdas. He writes to Ramdas when Ramdas is on tour that he should do this way and not do that way. Both of you appear to be so humble and serviceable and all that, but in fact you want to keep even us under your thumb. This is not service. Do you think it is? He tries to boss over those in the office. You want to boss over the visitors. When Ramdas points out your mistakes you do not like it. You still think you are right.

X: I realised later that I was at fault. When I came to the room I heard Krishna Iyer reading, and at the same time noticed that Papa and Mataji had got up. I thought that it was because of the noise of his reading that you got up so early. Immediately I told him so.

Papa: Do you know now that what you told him was false? What is the use of your doing bhajan, writing Ram Nam, doing dhyan and so on? They are for the purpose of purifying the mind and enlightening the intellect. They should remove the animal nature and make us human and then make us divine. You seem to be doing things without making use of the intellect just like animals. You must think and act. Krishna Iyer was very sorry to hear that he had disturbed our sleep. You caused needless sorrow. (to S): Ramdas does not find time to talk to these people such things privately. So he talks in the presence of others. Friends think that we are harassing them in spite of their loyal service. They do not know everything about these matters. They only see us scolding X and Y. X serves some with all love and is loved by them. In some cases he is harassing the visitors who in turn abuse him and go away. He serves where he likes and does not care where he dislikes. He does not serve all equally. That should not be the spirit.

It was getting warmer. Papa got up from his seat and came to his room. He did not pursue the subject further. At meal time, Mataji told S: "X came and told me everything. Papa also told me. X said that he wished Papa should speak to him so that he might once for all be freed from such bad habits. It seems, when I scold him he is not much affected. He says, if Papa scolds him, it will go deep down and change him. If X takes it in this spirit, it is very good and he can progress."

S: I wonder how X suddenly does such things.

Mataji: Y also. Both of them are alike.

S: X later regrets his actions.

Mataji: And wants to mend his ways. That is a sign of progress.

554. Heaven and Hell

It was past 5.30 p.m. when Papa returned from his usual evening walk. He took his seat on the cement bench. Near the seat Manorama and Tarabai were waiting. They sat on the steps in front of Papa. Two or three children were playing nearby. The sun was about to set. The whole place was bright and the setting sun shed its purple light directly on Papa's face.

Manorama (in Konkani): Papa, is there a place called hell? There is so much description of hell in various books.

Papa (in Konkani): Hell and heaven are here only. They are not anywhere else. When you enjoy the fruits of your good actions you are in heaven and when you suffer for your bad actions you are in hell.

Manorama: Those books say that we go to hell after our death if we commit sins here, and there we will be put in boiling oil, or fire and so on and that the way to hell is in such and such a direction.

Papa: They write as if they have actually seen hell.

Manorama: They write that this is told by Vishnu to Garuda.

Papa: They put their words into the mouth of Vishnu.

Manorama: We believe them because they are told by Vishnu, and Vishnu will not tell lies.

Papa: Vishnu won't tell lies. These are written only to frighten people and save them from committing sins. If we are told that in doing a certain evil act we will get punishment of a particular type, we won't be tempted to commit such an act considering the severity of the punishment. This is their idea. In spite of reading these books, people think that after all, the sufferings will be only after death, and that they should enjoy now somehow or other.

Manorama: Are the fruits of our evil actions to be suffered in this life itself or on the next life?

Papa: We see now some people suffer for their evil actions soon after they commit them; some suffer later. In some cases, perhaps, they have to suffer in the next life. It is no use reading such books. Instead of wasting your time on them you should read books on devotion. Ramdas once started reading ‘Shiva Purana’ in the ashram. That book is full of such stories. He read it for a few days and then discontinued.

The gateman, who had been instructed to go to the Post Office daily and bring the letters, came with the day's post and Papa got busy with the post.

555. "Where is the divine? You are the divine"

10 p.m. Papa was lying down. Mataji was writing Ram Nam sitting near his cot. Motiben, Subbaram and S were in the room. There was news that Sri Swami Anandashram had accepted Papa's invitation to visit the ashram. The Swamiji was expected in the first week of December for a week's stay. The talk that ensued was about the Swamiji and the arrangements that were to be made for his stay. Then Papa suddenly remembered a person who came in the evening, and told Mataji: "In the evening a man came. He could not have seen you as you were in the field at that time. We learnt that he was a merchant and had taken a contract recently to supply gorochana worth thirtythree thousand rupees to Singapore. He was not able to procure the quantity in spite of great efforts. He had consequently to ask for extension of time twice. He had to complete his contract in a month. He came to Mangalore and could procure gorochana worth three thousand rupees. He has yet to get the remaining quantity. He was very much worried on that account. He happened to get down at Kanhangad railway station and was sitting there in a very depressed mood.

"The booking clerk there, who belonged to Salem, came to know the condition of the man and asked him to go to Anandashram and see Ramdas. This suggestion did not appeal to him and he questioned the booking clerk: 'What? I am a business man. What business have I with a Swami and what am I to do there? I am not going to do sadhana there!' But the booking clerk requested him again to go over here. He agreed. The taxi that brought him came straight up to the ashram, while Ramdas was standing near the gate, watching the progress of the construction of the shed. It was past 5.30 p.m. The man got down and Subbaram informed him that the person he wanted to see was standing near the gate. He came to Ramdas, fell at his feet and stood up gazing intently at Ramdas. He said, "Swamiji, I am blessed today because I have your darshan. The darshan has taken away all my worries and cares. Let me look at you for some time.' He stood there gazing at Ramdas. Don't know what he saw in Ramdas’ face. After a few minutes Ramdas asked Subbaram to take him to the kitchen and give him a cup of coffee.

"Hearing that he said, ‘I do not want coffee or anything. Let me look at your face. That is all that I want.' After sometime, however, he was taken to the kitchen and given coffee. Subbaram enquired if he wanted to see anything in the ashram to which he got the reply, 'What do I care about anything else? I want to see only the Swamiji, nothing else.' He soon came back and stood before Ramdas for twenty minutes.

"When it was time to go, he told Ramdas, 'I wish to come here again. Your grace must make it possible for me.' Ramdas replied, 'God will make it possible....' The man said, 'Where is God? You are God....' Ramdas again told him, 'The Divine will....' The man again cut short Ramdas’ words and said, 'Where is the Divine? You are the Divine.' So saying, he went away."