← The Gospel of Swami RamdasHis talks, as recorded by Swami Satchidananda

1953-10-11

Chapter 25

Anandashram, October 11, 1953

214. Papa in joyous company

3 p.m. A taxi brought Natverlal G Parikh and his wife, Chandrakalaben, from Bombay. They had not given prior intimation of their coming. When they got down from the car, Papa happened to be standing outside the ashram, facing the garden. When the taxi stopped, he turned to see who the visitors were. Natverlal and his wife were coming up the steps, when Papa also walked towards them and greeted them. As the weather was warm, Papa had removed his shirt and had only a thin white cloth on.

Papa: Ramdas is like a Jain sadhu now!

He then took them to his room.

About fifteen minutes later, Papa took the guests to the dining-hall for tea. They took their seats and Papa also sat by their side. S entered the hall and greeted the guests, and after the formal conversation with them for a few minutes, he took his seat before them.

Papa: Now S will have tea and keep you company. Ramdas must go. After tea, all of you may come to Ramdas’ room and from there we shall go to the fields to meet Mataji.

Papa left the hall. A few minutes later all met again in front of the ashram. Papa was ready with his walking-stick to go to the fields.

Natverlal and his wife were deeply devoted to Papa and Mataji. Papa and Mataji had stayed with them when they were in Bombay. Natverlal was ill for some time and had gone to Europe with his wife for a change and had returned two months back. So he had a lot of news to tell Papa about his experiences in Europe.

Natverlal: Papa, we remembered you all so much in Switzerland and other places. We had a very comfortable tour all through. I wanted to contact some spiritual institutions. There was one in Switzerland called Moral Rearmament Association (MRA). I took it to be a purely spiritual organization, but later on came to know that they were mixing up politics with religion. I attended some of their meetings. But one thing appealed to me. They were insisting on everybody leading a strictly moral life and maintaining absolute purity, honesty, unselfishness and love (four absolutes).

Papa: Did you meet any of our ashram friends?

Natverlal: I had taken a few addresses from Bansidhar Bhai.

S: Did you meet Mr Henry Hamblin?

Natverlal: I had an appointment to meet him, but due to illness I could not go. The first one I called on was Dr HP Sastri in London. I phoned to him and said that as I knew he was a devotee of Swami Ramdas I would like to meet him.

Papa: What did you say? He, a devotee of Ramdas! What? This is what you people do. If you had met Hamblin also you would have said the same thing. What will those people think? They may take it that Ramdas is claiming that they are all Ramdas’ devotees.

Natverlal: HP Sastri replied, 'I am a devotee of God.' He invited us later to spend some time with him, which we did one evening.

From a distance Mataji was seen sitting on a small wooden stool in the fields.

Papa: Mataji does not know yet that you have come. Ramdas told her two or three days back that both of you might suddenly come here and take us by surprise.

Natverlal: Even this morning we were not sure of coming here. We had not made reservations. We went to the airport to take our chance and luckily two seats were vacant.

Papa: Sitting here, Ramdas can feel the pulse of you all. He knew your thoughts and so your coming is not a surprise to him. Nowadays he is able to read other's thoughts easily. If there is anybody by his side entertaining some bad thoughts, Ramdas knows it immediately; but very often he does not speak out as the other person will deny it and will fight it out to establish that he never had such thoughts. So Ramdas feels it safer to keep quiet about it.

The party reached the spot where Mataji was standing. Natverlal and his wife prostrated before Mataji, who inquired after their health and said, "Papa said that you might turn up suddenly. Have you had tea?"

Natverlal: Yes, Papa himself took us to the dining-hall and gave us tea.

Mataji: It is very good. So Papa himself looked after you.

Papa: Ramdas played her (Mataji's) part, that is all.

Mataji asked Papa to sit on the wooden stool on which she had been sitting; others kept standing and talked of various matters. As it began to rain, Papa started to return. S and Natverlal followed him. Chandrakalaben stayed behind with Mataji.

October 12, 1953

215. Mataji, a perfect planner.

5 p.m. Papa was strolling in the garden, S joined him.

Papa: Today it is very cloudy. If it is bright tomorrow, you must take some pictures of the garden. The flowers are coming up very nicely.

Natverlal also joined them.

S (to Natverlal): How did you manage to come out? How is your fever?

Papa: He came out even in the afternoon. He is not quite well yet.

Natverlal: Papa, this is a fine and well laid-out garden. Whose design was it?

Papa: Ramdas drew the design and Francis worked it out. He has done it exactly as Ramdas wanted.

Four big plants were planted anew and there was a bamboo piece projecting from the ground near each of those plants.

S: Papa, what are those bamboo pieces for?

Papa: That is Mataji's idea for watering the plants. Water poured through these bamboos will directly go to their roots. Otherwise only the earth on the top will be wet. Look at Mataji's originality. She has a wonderful brain. See this new room.

Natverlal: It looks very fine.

Papa: It is all Mataji's plan. She is an expert in planning. But one thing, she cannot tolerate anybody interfering with her plan. She must be left to do things as she likes. Ramdas used to interfere, but later realised that it would have been better if she had been left alone. So, he has now given her a free hand, and she does everything perfectly.

Natverlal: If Mataji hears this, what would she say?

Papa: Now she agrees to what Ramdas says. But she sometimes says that Ramdas is still interfering. Mostly he does not interfere. Even when we receive money, Ramdas simply hands the whole thing to her and does things as she directs. If somebody has to be paid, she gives the money to Ramdas and he pays him like a secretary. That is a good job.

When letters addressed to her are received, he replies to them and sends blessings on her behalf. So he is truly her secretary.

Natverlal: Papa can play any part.

Papa: Oh, yes, He can play the part of the dust of anybody's feet too!

October 15, 1953

216. Be eager for God

1 p.m. Natverlal and S went to the dining-hall but Mataji was not there. So they waited outside for Mataji. When Mataji came it was nearly 1.30. She smiled at both and remarked: "If you wait like this for God, you will surely get Him, that is if you do sadhana and eagerly wait for Him without thinking of anything else till He comes."

Natverlal: So, should we not take food till we get God?

Mataji: That is not what I mean. You wait for God with all eagerness, with the firm determination that you want nothing till you attain Him.

All sat down for lunch. Natverlal was having a bad stomach-ache ever since he came from Bombay. So he was on diet.

Mataji (to Natverlal): See, now you have been forced to live on purely sattwic diet. But for your stomach trouble you would not have lived on sattwic diet.

S: Mataji, Papa says that Natverlal has become so sattwic that all men, animals and birds have started loving him. They flock around him, with the result that he has not slept for the last two or three nights. Wild cats gave him company for two nights and then some birds and bats kept him awake almost the whole of last night.

Mataji laughed.

Natverlal: I feel all right now.

Mataji: Now you are all right. But this trouble came to test your faith and devotion. You came here with the idea of staying for eight days. The stomach trouble has shaken you entirely. If you had wings you would have flown to Bombay two days back.

Natverlal: I thought of starting on Friday. In fact that will not make any difference as Saturday and Sunday are holidays for my office.

Mataji: Not your office but your h-o-u-s-e!!!!

Natverlal: No, Mataji, I am not anxious about the house. She (pointing to his wife, Chandrakalaben, sitting near Mataji) worries about all that.

Mataji: Do not deny that. The mind plays all sorts of tricks. Deep within, it may be entertaining some anxious thoughts about the house. On the surface you say that you are not anxious. This is dangerous. Now you are able to suppress it, but a day may come when the mind gets strong with such thoughts and throws you overboard. To avoid that, the best course is to see honestly if the mind has really any desire to be clinging on to house and family. If so, advise it nicely about the pros and cons of it, and it is sure to be freed of that desire. Suppressing or hiding is not good. Samarth Ramdas had a fine way of tackling the mind. He used to advise the mind as he would advise children, and place before it the serious consequences that might ensure if it chose to follow a wrong path.

October 15, 1953

217. Saints speak from different levels of consciousness

9.15 p.m. In front of Papa were sitting a number of devotees in the bhajan-hall. Papa talked on various subjects. Then a brief interval of silence reigned. Breaking it, Papa started talking.

Papa: There are different levels of consciousness. That is the reason why saints have expressed the Truth in many ways. Some say Truth is dual and assert that every other statement about Truth is wrong. Some other saints say it is one and consider the play of duality false. Both seem to be right from their own standpoints.

MR Ramaswami: Which is the higher level?

Papa: There is no higher and lower there. Both are high. One who says that God is the one, nameless, formless Truth is right. The other who says He is the manifold forms is also right. But when one says that he alone is right and all others are wrong, then he is not correct because he does not know that he is talking about only one aspect of the Truth.

S: When Papa says that the advaitin is right and so also the dvaitin, from what plane or level is Papa viewing them?

Papa: That is no level at all. That is something where the duality and non-duality co-exist, where everything is and everything is not. Having attained this state one is not able to say or explain what one has experienced.

S: Is it not then the highest level?

Papa: It is no level at all. You can say it is the highest. The best way to express this state is to be silent. No amount of words can express this state. It is a mystery. Madhavacharya and Ramanujacharya were preaching from different planes or levels and that is why they appear to differ in their view.

October 17, 1953.

218. On making a will – God's will prevails

A will was made by Papa some years earlier and deposited in the District Registrar's office at Mangalore. Many changes had since taken place in the ashram affairs, and some of those who had been appointed as trustees were no more. It was therefore thought necessary that Papa should execute another will, cancelling the previous one. Arrangements in that connection, such as the valuation of the landed and other immovable properties as well as of the movable properties, publications, etc., were completed a few days back, and the necessary changes were also made in the body of the will with regard to the Sri Krishna Vidyalaya which was previously run by the ashram but had subsequently been handed over to the Harijan Welfare Department. A final draft of the will was ready. In the morning MR Ramsaswami read in the papers about the Estates Act passed by the Government of Madras recently. He doubted if the new Act would affect the ashram properties and suggested that it would be better to consult some lawyers before the will was finally registered, to avoid any complication that might arise on account of this Act. When MRR was reading out to S from the newspaper about the passing of the Act, Papa entered their room and enquired what the matter was.

MRR briefly explained the Act and thought it advisable to consult a lawyer before registering the will. Papa was anxious to have the will registered before he started on tour on 1st November. He was trying to hurry up things as much as possible. But delay became unavoidable. Papa agreed to MRR's suggestion and asked him to make arrangements to get a lawyer from Hosdurg the next day.

Papa then left followed by S and went straight to his room.

S: We cannot ask the lawyer to come tomorrow as Balaji (ashram manager) will not be here. He is leaving for Cannanore and will be back only after three or four days.

Papa: Balaji must be there when the talk goes on. So, there is no use sending for the lawyer now. We thought of registering the will before we started on the tour, but there are unavoidable delays springing forth and it is clear we cannot complete it before 1st November. His will be done! Why should we make a will at all? Why should we not let things go? We are trying to avoid any frictions and complications arising after our passing away. We hope that by making a will things will go on smoothly. But even with all these, the so-called complications will always be there and if there is nothing, those in management will create some complication and thereby bring about friction. So, will or no will, there is trouble. So let things go without a will.

S: Then God's Will will work. Of course, even when a will is made, it is also God's will. So in either case God's will alone works.

Papa: Always it is God's will alone that works. In fact there are no two wills such as human will and divine will. Whatever happens is ordained by the divine. A robber robs because the divine wills it. A murderer murders because the divine wills it. A man does something good because the divine wills it so. In all these cases though we may immediately attribute it to individual or human will, the fact is that behind all these is the divine.

S: So viewed, is Papa surprised at anything that happens in world?

Papa: Yes. Ramdas is really surprised at His play.

S: What, Papa, I did not hear you well.

Papa: At His p-l-a-y. When He comes out with new, and newer things never seen or heard of before, Ramdas is greatly surprised. Sometimes He does the most unimaginable things. How can one not be surprised then? He plays the part of a pious man. Suddenly He turns into a hypocrite and does such vile things while still in the garb of a pious man that people abhor him. He can play the part of a first-class hypocrite. Who will not be surprised at it?

219. Never tell a lie

9.30 p.m. As Natverlal and his wife were leaving the next day they remained with Papa longer than usual. After talking for some time in the bhajan-hall, Papa came to his room, where his bed was being spread. They too came in. When the bed was ready, Papa sat on it.

Natverlal: Papa, how are we to tackle our motor car affair? Lawyers are advising us each in a different way. What does Papa advise us?

Papa: As our Ramaswami put it just now, law is an ass. Government is making people tell lies, bringing such laws into force that people cannot live without defying them. What can Ramdas advise you? He does not know the ways of the world with all its intrigues. Ramdas has been advising all to lead an honest and straightforward life. But how many take his advice? They say it is impossible to live in the world without resorting to falsehood and foul means. (to S): Do we in the ashram lead a really honest life? Are we straightforward in all our transactions? What do you think?

S: We may be breaking certain laws boldly, but do not resort to telling lies. If we ask Mataji, we can see that she looks at this subject from an entirely different angle. Once I asked her if, to save herself or to save others from some critical situations, she would tell a lie. She replied that she would not tell a lie to save herself from any situation, but in the case of helping others she was not sure what she would do. She might or might not tell a lie.

Papa: Her view in such matters is entirely different from Ramdas’. Ramdas would never tell a lie under any circumstance, even for saving others from difficulties. Whatever Mataji does is only to help others and her heart is so pure that her acts are always for the benefit of others. Whatever she does, she does very boldly. During the days of strict rationing, supply of rice was not sufficient for feeding as she wanted. The ration shop was in the same building as our dye-house opposite the ashram. She used to go there once a week and ask the storekeeper to give her some rice or wheat, accounting the same against the ration-card holders who had not drawn their rations. Ramdas would never have done such a thing. Her argument was that there were so many being fed in the ashram and rice or wheat was badly needed, and there was no harm in getting those rations which were not required by the card-holders.

One day, when she was about to return from the ration shop with a good quantity of rice and wheat, the rationing inspector came there and questioned the storekeeper how he issued the rice and wheat to Mataji. The inspector was not satisfied with the explanation that the clerk gave, and held on to the view that it was an offence. Then Mataji talked to him explaining the situation. She said, “The storekeeper has given us some rice and wheat which were not purchased by some card-holders. This is for use in the ashram, where a large number of people of all classes are being fed every day. In the ashram we are not working for any selfish ends. Whatever we do is for the public good. You people here should volunteer to help the ashram as much as possible. Instead, you are trying to stop us from taking some extra rice. Is this for me to eat? Come and find out who are all eating.”

This explanation satisfied the inspector who now, with folded hands, told Mataji: “You may take whatever surplus there is of rice or wheat here."

Natverlal: So, instead of Mataji becoming the accused, the inspector became the accused.

Papa: Yes. Look at the beauty of it!

Natverlal: But, what about sadhakas? I feel they should never tell a lie on any account.

Papa: Yes. Sadhakas should never tell lies for their own sake.

S: Does Papa then permit them to tell lies for the sake of others?

Papa: No. They must be absolutely honest. Ramdas does not think there can be spiritual progress for anyone who is given to telling lies.