← The Gospel of Swami RamdasHis talks, as recorded by Swami Satchidananda

1953-11-07

Chapter 30

Anantapur, November 7, 1953

260. Papa and Mataji on themselves

9 p.m. Satyanarayana Rao's house. The devotees, who were sitting round Papa, got up and left the room. The bed was being made for Papa by S and three other devotees. Noticing that four people were preparing his bed, Papa remarked to Nanjunda Sastri who was standing by his side: "How big Ramdas has become! Four people to make his bed! Even Rajas and Maharajas may not have four people to make their bed."

Sastri: Two of them are graduates and one is an engineer.

Papa: Oh, two graduates, one engineer and one sannyasi. Ramdas has really become very great. There is no doubt about it.

Mataji who was in the adjacent room was overhearing all this. She now peeped in and asked Papa, "Since when?"

Papa: Ramdas knows of it just now.

Papa went to bed. Mataji and Krishna Rao's wife massaged Papa. Krishna Rao, Satynarayana Rao, Sastri and S were sitting near the cot.

Satyanarayana Rao: Papa, you were quite right when you said that Mataji is a better orator than yourself. She gave us a lecture this evening. It was simply marvellous. She was vehement and hard-hitting.

Papa: What was she talking about?

Satyanarayana Rao: The main point she touched was the question how many of us, who say we are devotees of Papa, are really desirous to have his grace?

Papa: That is her favourite subject.

Mataji (in Konkani): I did not wish to talk about that, but was dragged into it. I asked them, what is it that they exactly do while they talk so much about service. They may think, on seeing Papa, to give a donation of a hundred rupees. When they put their hands into the purse, only a rupee comes out. After taking it out they look up to the sky and down to the earth and finally decide not to give anything. That is their spirit of service! This is the only way I can talk.

Papa (to the devotees): Mataji was giving Ramdas a gist of what she told you.

Mataji: I do not know how to talk beautifully and in a pleasing way. Papa does it very nicely. He talks indirectly and the person concerned has only to take the cap if it fits him. But I directly hit those concerned.

Papa: When Ramdas speaks, he does not look at the person about whom he is talking, but looks at another. The person concerned may know that it is aimed at him and, if the cap fits him, may put it on. Sometimes every one thinks it is aimed at the other and nobody takes it. But Mataji's way is to use force and give a straight injection and end the matter. Mataji was something like fire.

Krishna Rao: Why 'was'? She is fire.

Papa: In the ashram she goes on lecturing when she gets angry. It may be in any language; that does not matter. Ramdas cannot talk like her. In the early days her main attack was on Ramdas, and Ramdas also was a fiery fellow.

S: After heated arguments, it seems, Papa used to run away to the hillock at night and spend the night there.

Papa: Yes, she was a terror in those days and Ramdas used to run away. But now he won't do it. He cannot sleep on thorns and stones, and in chill weather. Further, he is submissive nowadays.

S: By getting angry, her heads gets heated. Anybody who is unfortunate enough to go and talk to her at that time will get from her a good share of scolding. Last year, one day Mataji was very angry with the workers in the ashram kitchen and she had given them a bit of her mind – not a small bit, but a fairly large bit. Just at that time, Chandrakalaben, wife of Natverlal Parikh of Bombay, both of whom were staying in the ashram for a few days, came to Mataji and returned a few vegetables that were sent to her in the morning from the kitchen. Seeing her returning the vegetables, Mataji flung some hot words at her. Noticing that Mataji was not in her normal temper, Chandrakalaben quietly asked Mataji, 'May I bring the oil bottle and apply some oil on your head?' This question itself cooled down Mataji and she agreed to have some oil for her head." (All have a hearty laugh in which Mataji also joins).

November 8, 1953

261. Realisation not attained in a day

8.30 a.m. Papa, Mataji and other devotees left for the opening of the new building of the Homeopathic Association. The foundation stone had been laid by Papa in February 1951. The members considered themselves fortunate to have the opening ceremony performed as well by Papa. After the short function, Papa and party returned.

It was very late when Mataji, Krishna Rao, Satyanarayana Rao and S sat for lunch. Krishna Rao, who had come from Gulbarga for the occasion, was to return that evening and therefore anxious to dine along with Mataji.

Krishna Rao (to Mataji): I was telling Papa that I was given the Ram Mantra on the Ram Navami day in 1943. Now it is ten years; and what progress have we made after all?

Mataji: What did Papa say?

Krishna Rao: Papa said that we should not think there is no progress at all. The progress is there. Realisation is not a thing to be attained in a day. We must have the necessary preparation to receive the final touch. It cannot be done all of a sudden. The Guru is looking after the progress, and so on.

Mataji: Were you satisfied with the answer?

Krishna Rao: Yes.

262. Why aspirants were directed to Papa

An hour to two after dinner, Mataji and S were alone in the room.

Mataji: Did you hear what Krishna Rao said about Papa's reply?

S: I heard him.

Mataji: After hearing him, I was thinking within myself why I should have talked to Satyanarayana Rao and Laxmi Devi in that strain as I did yesterday.

S: Do you mean to say that what you talked yesterday would appear to contradict what Papa had told them?

Mataji: Superficially they appear contradictory. But one has to think deep and understand what we both mean.

S: There is no contradiction if we understand aright.

Mataji: But, for those who do not carefully study them, these apparently contradictory statements will prove disturbing. That is why I am not in the habit of talking about spiritual subjects to anybody. I would talk only about work and other general matters and was strictly avoiding spiritual topics. Nowadays, however, when you ask questions, I talk to you. I talk to some others also, but generally I direct all to Papa for spiritual instructions.

263. Vasanas

2 p.m. It was the time for questions and answers. The hall was full. A boy came to Papa with a Ram Nam book and a fountain pen for Papa's signature. Papa took both from him and signed. While returning the pen, he noticed that the pen was badly leaking and there were inkstains on his fingers.

Papa: Ramdas has plenty of ink on his fingers.

Satyanarayana Rao got up and wiped the fingers with his towel. But the stains would not go. He then went inside and got a cup of water and a basin. Papa washed his fingers, but the stains did not completely disappear.

Papa: Let the mark remain there.

One devotee: It is just like the vasanas that leave a mark even after they are washed off.

Papa: Vasanas may be driven out of the mind. But they persist in the body. One whose mind is free from vasanas is said to have manosiddhi. One whose body is free from vasanas is said to have kayasiddhi. One who has kayasiddhi is said to have completely eradicated all his vasanas both from his mind and body. That is perfection in yoga. Some jnanis stop at eradicating the vasanas from the mind and do not care about their ejection from the body. But there are some siddhas who have perfected the body also. By so doing, they say they are divinishing the body. They make the light of the Atman permeate the body to such an extent that every particle of the body is made holy and shines with the divine radiance.

Devotee: Will such a body die?

Papa: It may die, but the man will be entirely free from all vasanas even on his physical plane.

Devotee: Is Sri Aurobindo's yoga the same?

Papa: Something like that. But he claimed that the body can be made immortal, drawing its sustenance from the cosmic energy, so that it can live on for ever. Here you will have no need for food or water and will not have to relieve yourself. Every particle of your body becomes a vehicle of divine power, every movement of your body is a movement of bliss.

264. What Ram is

Devotee: Is your Sri Ram different from Dasaratha Ram?

Papa: Ramdas will answer you in Kabir's words. He was also put the same question. He said, 'My Ram is the great Truth, Impersonal, dwelling in the hearts of all beings and creatures in the universe. My Ram is the all-pervading, immanent and all-transcendent Reality. My Ram has assumed the forms of all beings and things and my Ram is Dasaratha's son also. My Ram is the all-inclusive and all-transcendent Supreme Godhead'.

Devotee: By saying so, do you mean that Dasaratha Ram and other manifestations are same to you?

Papa: Yes.

Devotee: Then, how is Ram considered as an avatar?

Papa: Though God manifests Himself in all beings, the intensity of the manifestation differs – in some it is more, in some others it is less. There are some big waves and also small waves in the ocean. Big or small, both are forms of the same water.

Devotee: Hanuman did not agree with this view. He declared that his Rama was the Supreme Godhead.

Papa: Hanuman also said that as Atman he and Rama were one; as body, he was the servant or das of Rama.

Devotee: In the idea of oneness, can there be dasabhava? Are they not contradicting each other?

Papa: It appears contradictory but it is possibile.

Devotee: That attitude may be purely based on faith or belief.

Papa: Belief cannot be applied to the highest Truth. Intellect and heart do not reach there.

265. Grace and Karma

Devotee: Swami, how can grace work when the law of karma is in force?

Papa: Ah, that is the point which Ramdas wanted to explain some time ago. If karma theory is all in all, grace has no part to play in your life and everything will have to happen as determined by karma. God has nothing to do in the shaping of your life. As in Buddha's teachings, God is severely kept out of your life and you have to work out your own destiny. By doing good acts you get good results, by bad acts bad results. The cycle goes on and on and God has no place in your life. It is by living a righteous life alone you evolve. But if you take God as a force that aids you in your spiritual evolution, then you need His grace. You do bad actions and consequently suffer. Again you do bad actions and again suffer. There must be some force active in you that must help you in your upward progress. Left to yourselves, you may be doing the same wrong action over and over again and go on suffering as a result of it. Some great power within you must turn you from the wrong path, and that power comes to you when you pray to the divine for rescue. That is grace. You mind is turned to the right path by this grace.

A devotee has composed a beautiful song. 'O God, are you a dealer in goods? You say if we only do japa and tapa for long years you will give us darshan. If we labour hard for your realisation and get it, this is not grace. Then your darshan is the wages we get for our hard toil. Do you call it grace? It is then our right to claim your darshan after having done sadhana. If you are really gracious, you must raise and save me without my doing any sadhana. Then I won't call it a barter or bargain and you, a shopkeeper.’

So grace comes only when we know we can do nothing to attain Him, but leave all things to Him in utter surrender. In fact by His grace alone we repeat His name and do sadhana to have Him. The moment our mind is turned towards Him we may be sure that grace has come to us. This happens in the company of a saint. Many who are living a life fully immersed in worldly enjoyments are suddenly awakened to the higher life. Surely this awakening takes place by the contact of a great soul, a saint whose life has been transformed by grace. Karma by itself cannot liberate us.

Devotee: If there is grace, why should it not liberate us immediately? Why should we have to take to all these difficult paths?

266. Devotee and God – one and the same

Papa: In the ultimate analysis Ramdas can say the sadhaka is He, the saddhya is He. He is having a play of 'hide and seek.' He is seeking Himself, and even though He can discover Himself at once, He purposely delays. Suppose some children play the game of 'hide and seek'. The one who tries to find out the one in hiding, though he knows where he is, pretends that he does not know, searches in places where he is not and prolongs the game, and at last comes to the place where the other is and shouts he has found him. Such is the play between the devotee and God – who are after all one and the same.

267. Love, the easiest path

Devotee: Papa, you say that the path of surrender is the easiest. I say it is the most difficult.

Papa: Through utter love for God, we can attain the state of surrender. Love is not to be learnt by taking lessons. It is our nature from childhood. As children we first love our mother, later we love so many other objects of the world. The only thing we have to do is to make God the object of our love.

Devotee: That is the most difficult thing to do.

Papa: That is truly the easiest path. All other paths are hard and difficult. By constant repetition of His name you can love Him and finally surrender to Him.

Devotee: When I repeat Ram Nam, I remember Rama as the one who was weeping for Sita, or as the one who killed Vali, and it does not produce any good effect one me.

Papa: Do not have such ideas. Ram is at the same time the highest Truth – all-pervading, all-loving and all-merciful. When Ramdas repeated Ram Nam he found it to be very effective.

268. Concentrate on the Name

Devotee: When I repeat the Name what should I think as the object of the Name; what form?

Papa: No form is necessary. You may concentrate on the sound and see that in a short time your mind becomes fully concentrated and still.

Devotee: There must be some object for the Name.

Papa: The Name itself is the object. If you repeat OM, what object can you bring before the mind? OM is the absolute Truth. So the Name also is He. Name is God.

Devotee: There is no mention of Ram Nam in the earlier Upanishads. And if it is the name of Dasaratha Rama, then he is also not considered as the Supreme Being by many. How can we then consider that Ram Nam is all-powerful?

Papa: Don't you know that Valmiki himself repeated Ram Nam?

Devotee: There are instances mentioned to say that Valmiki never led a bad life whereas it is generally said that he was a kinnara. If he was a kinnara, he would have made some reference to that in the Ramayana. But he has not. And it is also said the Ramayana was written before Dasaratha Rama was born. It was a story from the pure imagination of the poet-saint.

Papa: Whatever the puranas may say, and whoever may have written the story, Ramdas can vouch that Ram Nam has the power to take one to the peak of spiritual experience. Ramdas himself repeated Ram Nam and concentrated his mind upon it. He considered Ram Nam as the symbol of the highest Truth and it has taken him to it. Ramdas speaks with authority because he has experienced its wonderful power. You must have faith in the power of the Name. You can test for yourself how it acts upon your vasanas and how it gradually eradicates them completely. Even a serpent that is moving about with its hood raised, however violent it may be, lowers its hood and becomes very quiet as soon as the snake- charmer plays on his pipe. So also, when your mind listens to Ram Nam, it acts like a snake-charmer's pipe on the cobra of your mind. The mind becomes calm and quiet. Ultimately all vasanas are completely rooted out.

November 9, 1953

269. Intensify sadhana

10.30 a.m. Satyanarayana Rao's house. Two devotees of Hindupur were sitting in front of Papa holding his feet. One of them was a veterinary doctor, Sitaram Sastry, and the other a merchant. Sitaram Sastry appeared completely overcome by emotion, tears flowing down his cheeks. As it was time for Papa's shave and bath, S was about to call him to the adjoining room. But seeing Papa talking very lovingly and seriously to the veterinary doctor, keeping the right hand on his back and the left hand on the other devotee sitting on Papa's left, S did not feel like disturbing Papa, but stood near him, hearing the holy conversation.

Papa: Don't be dispirited. Give yourself up entirely to Him and once for all be free. Have no doubts or misgivings. The divine is within you. Think of Him constantly. Don't be subject to dejection and depression. Intensify your sadhana. Then alone you can withstand the temptations of the world. When you are downhearted, think of Ramdas’ smiling face and you will immediately be elevated. When Ramdas was doing sadhana he had none to give him advice like this. He had to look out for himself. He had to face all the obstacles to sadhana and overcome them by the grace of God within. Mostly he was then in solitude. Whenever he had an occasion to have darshan of a saint, he simply prostrated before him and sat silent in front of him. He felt the saint was inwardly directing him to go into solitude. And he liked it too.

The vasanas do not leave us suddenly. Divine power, when it acts in us, can alone completely destroy vasanas. They are like the six heads of the serpent Kaliya. The heads are kama, krodha, lobha, moha, mada and matsarya. This serpent can be subdued only by Krishna – the Supreme Being. When light comes, darkness disappears. So, when the divine reveals Himself in you, all the vasanas automatically disappear.

In the state of our ignorance we are subject to three gunas. When we transcend these gunas we realise God. Thereafter, instead of remaining in the three gunas we will abide in Sat-chit-ananda.

Looking at S standing there for some time, Papa asked if bath was ready.

S: Papa is to have a shave today.

Papa: Ah, Ramdas forgot all about it.

Papa then went to the adjoining room to have his shave.

Papa: The water is cold.

S: I shall bring hot water again. I had kept it very hot before I came to call you there. But you were engaged in a serious talk. I did not like to disturb you and so stood there quietly listening to your talk. In the meantime the water became cold.

Mataji: I was wondering why S who went to call you took so long to return.

Papa: Ramdas saw S standing. But he did not feel like breaking the conversation half-way.

Mataji was very happy to see Papa seriously instructing earnest, attentive aspirants.