← The Gospel of Swami RamdasHis talks, as recorded by Swami Satchidananda

1953-12-22

Chapter 41

Ramdas-Ashram, Bhavnagar, December 22, 1953

419. Another recalcitrant devotee

7.30 p.m. Papa returned from evening walk and had his cup of milk. As usual in his room many devotees gathered round him; two of them, sitting on either side, were massaging his legs. It had become the habit of every devotee, whenever he sat near Papa, to massage his legs. Sometimes the massaging became so excessive that it was painful and then he would sit with legs crossed to escape pain. Anantrai Pattani and his wife joined the group.

Mandanbhai, a devotee from Jamnagar who had arrived a few days back, came to take his leave of Papa. He wanted to go back and send his people for Papa's darshan.

Mandanbhai had come to Anandashram a few months ago. His brother, Jodhubhai, was in the ashram, fasting and not heeding what Papa told him. Sick of him, Papa asked him to go away. But he would not and therefore Papa had to send a telegram to his brother at Jamnagar to take him back home. He came and took Jodhubhai away with him.

Papa: How is Jodhubhai? Is he studying or doing any work?

Mandandhai: Jodhubhai has left off his studies. He is doing some work in our fields. He wanted to go over to Anandashram once more and went up to Bombay. But suddenly he made up his mind to return.

Papa: Why did you allow him to start for the ashram at all? You know fully well how he behaved when last he was there. He would not listen to us at all; without taking food properly he would wander outside the ashram the whole day. Ramdas advised him many times to regulate his life, but he never cared. People come to the ashram for sadhana. This is the sort of sadhana they do. They go their own way and do not care to follow our instructions. How can they progress behaving like this? They get sick physically and mentally, and finally we have to arrange to serve them. You need not send Jodhudhai here. If he comes here he will have mental lapse again. He had had enough of so-called darshan. Let him digest it properly. Too much of it seems to cause him indigestion.

420. Take to the spiritual quest early

During Papa's visit to Bhavnagar in 1951, he had stayed with Anantrai Pattani, ex-Dewan of Bhavnagar, then seriously ill. After Papa's stay there, he had steadily improved and got well. This time after Papa's arrival, Anantrai was having cold and fever and so for two or three days he could not come to meet Papa. His wife came daily. After Anantrai got well, both of them had been coming together almost everyday. Anantrai sat on a chair near Papa, as he found it difficult to sit on the floor.

Anantrai: Swamiji, this body is no good for any further work. It has done its work.

Papa: The race is run. Now it is time to rest.

Anantrai: When one is young, it is the work of the body, and when one is old, it is the work of the soul.

Papa: Better to start the work of the soul from youth. Sri Ramakrishna has beautifully put it: 'When we work we must do so with one hand and lay the other at the feet of the Lord. When the work is over we must have both our hands at the feet of the Lord'.

Anantrai: Ah, that is right, Swamiji.

Looking at the two persons who were massaging Papa's legs, Papa jokingly remarked, "When people go on massaging Ramdas’ legs, they sometimes wipe the perspiration off their face and immediately rub the legs with the same hands. Sometimes they put their finger in their nose and mouth and then use the same hand for massaging. Ramdas notices all these, but they are acting involuntarily that they are not conscious of what they do." The way in which Papa explained and acted out their parts raised gales of laughter.

Papa: This rubbing has been going on too long now. Let the legs have some rest.

So saying, Papa kept one foot over the other knee and sat in the posture usual with Sai Baba. The devotee, who was rubbing his feet, prostrated before Papa and said: "I stay in Bombay I have read your books and heard of you. Only today I have your darshan. I am a devotee of Sai Baba and I am extremely happy to see Sai Baba himself here. It is surprising you took the posture of Sai Baba while I was sitting before you."

Papa: Ramdas did not voluntarily do it.

The devotee: Whatever it was, you showed yourself to me as Sai Baba.

421. Parasmani changes only Iron into Gold

10 a.m. A Parsi devotee was sitting near Papa and narrating his spiritual experiences. Near him was standing Indu, the devotee from Patna. When the Parsi was about to leave, he prostrated before Papa who placed his hand on his head.

Seeing this, after the Parsi had left, Indu sat near Papa's feet and said: "Please place your hand on my head as well, Papa," which he did.

Indu: Merely placing your hand is not enough. You must change me as Sri Ramakrishna changed Vivekananda.

Papa: For that you must come here as Vivekananda went to Sri Ramakrishna.

Indu: Vivekananda did not believe even in the existence of God in those days.

Papa: Do you believe in the existence of God?

Indu: Yes, I do.

Papa: Then, do not believe in God. Be like Vivekananda and come to Ramdas. You know Parasmani changes iron into gold and not any other metal. If it is rubbed on brass, nothing happens. Iron alone can be so changed.

It was getting late for bath. So Mataji hastened to arrange for the bath and Papa also got up.

422. Sannyas for wholetime sadhana

As soon as Papa came out, Jayantilal, the bearded Ram, who was writing Ram Nam outside in the hall, came in with book and pen in hand.

Jayantilal: Papa can I have better prayer or meditation if I wear ochre cloth?

Papa: Do you mean taking ochre cloth only during prayer and meditation or do you mean sannyas? After putting on ochre clothes you should not engage yourself in worldly activities. You must be in a position to dedicate your entire life to God. If you are confident about it then you can take up sannyas. Are your parents living?

Jayantilal: My mother is dead but father is living. From youth I have been engaged in Congress work; after seeing Papa, I have practically left off Congress work.

Papa: If you take up sannyas, it must be to devote your whole time to sadhana. Otherwise it is not worth it. Doing sadhana for some time and then thinking of some work is no good. You must have intense dispassion. Then alone you can do sadhana vigorously. Without sadhana, dispassion cools down. So dispassion and sadhana must go together.

Jayantilal did not give a decisive reply, but appeared to be satisfied. He left the room.

423. Only tamas and rajas are obstacles

'Question and Answer' session.

A devotee: It is believed that Indra and other gods place obstacles in the path of earnest aspirants when they are engaged in austerities. Is that true?

Papa: It is believed Indra and other gods do not like human beings rising to a state higher than theirs. That is why they put obstacles. But Ramdas’ opinion is not that any external power obstructs you but the internal enemy. When you are in either rajas or tamas, you have no inclination for any devotional practice. You cannot then think of God or the path leading to Him. It is when you are in sattwa guna that you feel like doing bhajan or other spiritual practices.

Some people ask Ramdas why they are sometimes not inclined to do bhajan or even repeat God's name. The reason is that they are immersed in tamas or rajas. By intense prayer you are raised to sattwa guna and you are more inclined to repeat His name and meditate on Him. Real joy comes to you only then and not while you are in tamas or rajas.

If you have surrendered yourself to God, He does not permit any obstacle in the way of your sadhana. He will keep you above tamas and rajas. By constant remembrance and surrender to God, try to remain always in sattwa.

‘Vaikuntha’ and ‘Patala’ are within us and not anywhere else. He who remains always in sattwa is in Vaikuntha; when immersed in tamas he is in Patala; when in rajas he is on the earth.

A devotee: How long should I repeat the Mantra?

Papa: Till you have the vision of God. If your aspiration is intense, you will get God-vision. When your desire is lukewarm, it takes an indefinitely long time to reach Him.

A devotee aspiring for God-realization desires to remember God constantly. He engages himself in strict discipline and adjusts his life in such a way that he has no chance to forget God. He has a soft heart which melts at the sight of suffering. Hard-hearted people who have no love and sympathy for others, cannot love God either.

Devotee: Why did God make us hard-hearted?

Papa: If you remember God, your heart becomes very soft. You yourself made it hard by forgetting Him.

424. Sandhyavandan, when effective

A devotee: Does the observance of sandhyavandan and Gayatri japa help us towards the goal?

Papa: If properly done, it helps. When you do sandhyavandan you must be fully immersed in it. Never do it half-heartedly. Some people do these as a matter of duty without putting their heart in it. Do not do it that way. Sri Ramakrishna has said that sandhyavandan and other modes of daily worship should end in Gayatri. Gayatri should end in Om, and Om in samadhi. This is the way to do sandhyavandan. If you do it as a matter of duty, it will have very little effect on you.

But it is said that in kali-yuga, mere repetition of God's name alone will suffice for one's spiritual progress and liberation. Everybody can do this sadhana as it is free from all restrictions of time, place or anything of the kind. This sadhana is prescribed for people of all castes, creeds and nationalities. They can go on with the repetition of the Name even when they are at work. Those who have developed love for the Name will repeat it at all times.

425. Can women repeat Gayatri?

A devotee: What is the form of Hiranyagarbha?

Papa: Ramdas does not know anything but Ram Nam. Ramdas never learnt sastras or puranas. His only sadhana was Ram Nam. Somebody asked Hanumanji if he knew the sastras. Hanumanji replied that he knew nothing but Ram Nam. So also Ramdas knows only Ram Nam.

A woman devotee: Can women repeat Gayatri? The sastras do not permit them to do so.

Papa: That is what the sastras say. In the Kanya Kumari Sthan at Sakori, Ramdas saw the kanyas doing yajnas and many other religious acts chanting all the Mantras including Gayatri.

426. See God in everything

A devotee: What is real happiness for a human being?

Papa: Atmananda or brahmananda.

A devotee: You say everything happens by the will of God. A person does bad things and does not think of God. Is it not also God's will?

Papa: Looking at it through the divine vision you see it as God's will. From the human point of view it is only human will. So also if you see God in everyone, you know that God alone is doing everything. God's will alone works through everyone.

In this connection Ramdas will tell you a story. There was a King who was very devout. Whenever any sadhu happened to come to his place he worshipped him with all love and devotion and gave him valuable presents. Taking advantage of this, a juggler put on ochre robes and posing himself as a sannyasi, came to the king's palace. The king received him with great love and honour and worshipped him in the usual style.

Seeing the great honour bestowed upon the sadhu, one of the courtiers told the minister that he was a juggler in sannyasi robes and the king was being cheated. The minister wanted to convey this information to the king. He went in and found the king fully immersed in worship of the sannyasi. The minister was wonder-struck at the devotion of the king and did not dare to disturb him. The worship therefore continued undisturbed and the sannyasi left the palace with valuable presents.

The same evening the imposter-sannyasi was giving a performance in the town. On being informed, the minister decided to acquaint the king with the fact. He took the king out for an evening drive and came to the place where the juggler was entertaining a large crowd of people. Pointing to the juggler, the minister asked the king if he could recognise him. The king immediately ran up to the juggler and fell prostrate at his feet saying: 'O Lord, your lila is wonderful. You gave me darshan this morning in the form of a sannyasi and now in the form of juggler.'

That was the vision of the king. He saw God only in all forms. So where is good and bad for him? One who is blessed with this vision sees the same God in the saint as well as in the sinner.

December 25, 1953

427. Ram Mantra harmonizes with other sounds

12 noon. Papa was about to retire for afternoon rest. The door was closed. Maganlal Raichura knocked and went in.

Maganlal: Papa, Maharajshri has come for your darshan.

The day before, Maganlal had informed Papa of the arrival of a professor who had taken to spiritual life and delivered lectures on spiritual subjects. He was then with Maganlal.

Papa: (getting up and sitting on the cot): Yes, let him come in.

A man of about fifty, wearing a white dhoti and a khaddar jacket of red ochre colour, with a small beard and trimmed but uncombed hair entered the room, bowed before Papa and sat in front of him.

Papa: Very kind of you, Maharaj, to have come here.

Professor: I have heard so much about you.

Papa: What is there special in Ramdas? If there is anything in him, that is in you also and in everybody else. Ramdas is only a child.

It was decided later that the professor should speak at the close of the bhajan that evening. He left the room with Maganlal.

During Papa's usual evening walk he was followed by Mataji, S, Champaben, Kamdar and Mama. While they were walking on the bank of the lake, a car was seen coming towards them. It was taken to be that of the Maharaja of Bhavnagar as only his car was permitted to be driven over the bank of the lake. About a hundred yards ahead, the car stopped and the Maharaja, who was driving the car himself, got down and walked towards Papa. In a few minutes they met.

Maharaja (with folded hands): I have not had your darshan for some time. I knew you are coming here daily for a walk. So I took this opportunity to have your darshan.

Papa: We had been to your bungalow when we came here yesterday and we were happy to be shown round by the contractor in charge of the repairs. We went into every room, even into the kitchen. (That was a bungalow near the lake).

Maharaja: I was also told by the contractor and was so happy. I would love to have you at the bungalow for a few days, but unfortunately the repairs are not yet completed. I have a seaside bungalow, a few miles away from here. It is a quiet place. Would you like to spend a few days there with me?

Papa: There are regular programmes going on and friends are coming from different places. Ramdas cannot get away from Ramdas-Ashram as long as he is here.

Maharaja: I would at least like to have a bhajan at my place and request you to come there for about two hours.

Papa: Yes, that will be all right. Ramdas will come to you one of these days.

Maharaja: Your Mantra 'Om Sri Ram Jai Ram Jai Jai Ram' is so nice. Whenever in the morning I go for a ride on horseback, the trampling of the horse's hoofs synchronizes with my repetition of the Mantra. It is a nice marching tune.

Papa: While travelling in the train, the sound of the wheels is also in tune with the repetition of the Mantra.

Maharaja: I would have taken you in my boat but unfortunately it is in a hopeless condition. I have not been using it for some years now, and it has not been repaired.

Thus talking, they walked up to the temple, and as Papa was walking slowly, the Maharaja found it difficult to keep pace with Papa. As the Maharaja often went a head, he had to slow down his pace. The car was waiting for Papa near the temple. Papa got in and the Maharaja, saluting with folded hands, took his leave.

December 27, 1953

428. What it means to feed a saint

The day being the thirtyfirst sannyas day of Papa, devotees came in for his darshan and blessings from early morning. It was nearing 7 a.m. when Anantrai Pattani and his wife came in. After prostrating before Papa, Pattani sat on the chair close by. A big pot of ghee and some vegetables brought by them were taken by their servant to be shown to Papa. Since Papa's arrival at the ashram, many devotees had been bringing ghee for Papa's use.

Papa: So much of ghee is sent to Ramdas that virtually he can bathe in ghee. They bring these with great love. Why do people bring all things for Ramdas? They take great joy in feeding him. It is said that feeding one saint is equivalent to feeding one thousand people. Ramdas will tell you a story in this connection.

"You must have heard of Eknath Maharaj, the great Maharashtrian saint. He was a householder and had a son who had gone in for some advanced course of study in Sanskrit. Eknath Maharaj was leading a humble life in the village. The villagers used to come to him in large numbers to hear him reading some scriptures in Sanskrit which he explained in Marathi. Thus they were spending some blissful hours everyday, as Eknath Maharaj's exposition was simple and sweet.

"When his son came back, vain of his scholarship in Sanskrit, he did not like his father's exposition in Marathi and so asked him to expound in Sanskrit. His father replied that he would not be able to do so and the people also could not understand that language. But so arrogant was his son, he told his father that from the next day he would do the reading and expound in Sanskrit. As the simple villagers could not understand his exposition, one by one they stopped coming for the satsang and in a few days there was none, and consequently the reading had to be stopped. The villagers became very unhappy at this, as they badly missed those blissful hours. But they could not help it.

In the meanwhile one poor old woman of the village had taken a vow to feed a thousand people. Though she had taken the vow and had a great desire to fulfil it, she had little means for doing so as she was very poor. She consulted a brahmin who suggested that she might feed Eknath Maharaj and that would be equivalent to her feeding a thousand people.

When the old woman went to Eknath Maharaj and requested him to grace her house and have bhiksha there, his son protested and asked his father to stop the practice of going out anywhere for bhiksha. However, he permitted her to bring food to his house and serve him. She did so and served the great saint with love and affection. When the meal was over, the old woman, as is the custom, was about to collect the leavings on the leaf as prasad, but the saint's son barred her. The old woman was greatly disappointed. Now the vain young man himself took the leaf on which Eknath Maharaj had taken food, and threw it out at a little distance. When he returned, he found another leaf in the same place. He removed it and to his surprise found yet another leaf, till he had removed a thousand leaves. This great miracle opened the vain scholar's eyes and also satisfied the old mother that feeding Eknath Maharaj was equivalent to feeding a thousand people.

You must have heard the story of Jesus Christ having fed three thousand people out of seven loaves and three fishes. Can modern minds understand such happenings? They will not believe them.

A devotee: What must be our feeling when we give charity? Are we not doing disservice helping the poor?

Papa: Some people believe that by helping the poor we are really doing them disservice. Ramdas’ view is that when we give we should not feel that we are doing so to help them, but for our own uplift and spiritual elevation.

429. Realise static and dynamic aspects of truth

Anantrai Pattani's younger brother Batukbhai Pattani came in with his wife as usual, for darshan. He would come with a thick walking stick, place it near Papa's feet and then touch his feet.

Papa: This is dandavat – prostration like a stick. Here it is not only like a stick but the stick itself is made to prostrate.

(Batukbhai has a hearty laugh)

A devotee: What is the effect of Nama smaran?

Papa: Take it and see for yourself. If you ask what will happen if you take food, how can Ramdas explain it to you? You must eat food and know for yourself what happens.

Some of the devotees now left the room and some others were called in for breakfast. Papa also got up and went to the bathroom. When he returned, Akbarbhai and his brother Ismailbhai sat near Papa.

Papa: Unless you harmonize the outer with the inner life there is no peace for you. You may get a certain amount of peace during meditation, but when you come out of it to activity, you get disturbed and lose all that peace you had. Joy in the external activity alone will not be permanent. In the early stages it is very difficult to gain harmony. Harmony can come only when you can conceive the static as the basis of the dynamic aspect. If you think that the static is entirely different from the dynamic, there is clash. Dynamic is the expression of the static. They are two aspects of the same Truth.

Some people wish to lose themselves in meditation and think that itself is the goal. Some others desire to lose themselves in external work and think that that is the goal. You must first realise the static aspect, and then the dynamic aspect as its expression, which means you must realise That which is both static and dynamic at the same time.

Scientists and great thinkers may say this is all bunkum because they base their conclusions on the findings of the intellect. They believe only in what the intellect can solve. But intellect has no entry into the spiritual realm.

430. Lift the veil yourself

Akbarbhai: How are we to realise that which is beyond the intellect?

Papa: You have to remove the veil. You have put on the veil yourself, and you yourself have to remove it.

Akbarbhai: As you have removed your veil, you can help us.

Papa: Ramdas is helping you all by showing how you can remove the veil. You have to do it yourself.

Akbarbhai: But you can help us more than by merely showing the way, as Totapuri helped Sri Ramakrishna to get the experience of nirvikalpa samadhi. Totapuri pressed a glass piece on Sri Ramakrishna's forehead and Sri Ramakrishna immediately went into the superconscious state.

Papa: Ramdas has not tried that method so far and he may not try at all. But one thing has to be noted. To give that help and experience, Totapuri wanted a Ramakrishna. All could not be given that experience. Totapuri did not press a glass piece on the forehead of others. He did it only on Ramakrishna's forehead.

Akbarbhai: Why do you not do unto me as Totapuri did for Sri Ramakrishna?

Papa: You must then be like Sri Ramakrishna. In fact, Ramdas does not believe in giving any experience which you may have to lose. Though Ramakrishna gave the experience of samadhi to Vivekananda, it was only for a short time and Vivekananda had to do intense sadhana for years in solitude in the Himalayas to obtain that state permanently.

Instead of having only a glimpse of the divine, you must progress gradually by doing intense sadhana, by purifying yourself and making yourself fit in every way for the highest experience. Unless you are pure enough, you cannot retain the experience.

431. Dedicate everything to God

All the devotees had left the room. Batukbhai Pattani alone was sitting near Papa. Seeing S folding and cutting a few sheets of paper, Papa remarked: "When you have dedicated all your actions to the divine within you, you do everything with great joy and in perfection. When you offer all actions to God, naturally you will see that you do only good actions. Not only actions, but all your thoughts and words too are to be dedicated to him. How can you then have bad thoughts, words or deeds? You cannot offer anything bad to God. So you will have pure thoughts, good words and holy actions. Then you become like a sweet flower fit to be offered to God."

December 31, 1953

432. Saints drop body at will

10.30 a.m. Sai Sattar Shah was in the room with Papa. He was sitting opposite on a chair. He had come two days back and his health had not been good of late. He was coughing and had pain in the chest, and looked very weak. Papa enquiring about his health, asked him, "How old is your body?"

Sattar Shah: Sixty-two.

Papa: You are much younger than Ramdas who is nearly seventy now.

Bansidhar G Parikh, who had come from Ahmedabad the previous day, was sitting near Papa. He said, "He looks much older than Papa."

Sattar Shah: I have not been keeping well on account of some illness or other. That is the nature of the body. Suffering is there for all alike but he who knows the Truth enjoys bliss even in suffering while the ignorant weep and wail.

Papa (to Bansidharbhai): How do you find Ramdas’ health?

Bansidharbhai: Papa looks quite fine. But he seems to have lost a bit of his weight.

Papa: Yes, Ramdas has slightly gone down in weight. He was one hundred and twentynine pounds and now one hundred and twenty six. The doctor in Bombay, who treats him now for diabetes, wishes that Ramdas should bring his weight down to one hundred and twenty. Ramdas feels healthier all the same. This body is quite fit now. There is longevity in the family in which this body was born. Most of the members of the family lived long. Gurudev's father lived up to ninetythree years and Gurudev also lived long. Ramdas’ eldest brother Narasinga Rao is now eightythree. He came to meet Ramdas at Khar and we had a jolly talk for about an hour.

Bansidharbhai: So Papa also can keep the body for long.

Papa: Don't know. They say that Ramdas can drop his body at his own will and you can be sure he is not going to for some time unless he feels that this body has done its work, is diseased and cannot be of any more service.

Bansidharbhai: Is it not true that all saints leave their body at their will?

Papa: It is said so.

Bansidharbhai: As if Papa does not know.

Papa: If Ramdas says 'yes', you will all force him to keep his body long. He does not want to commit himself. Anyway he has no wish to drop it early. What is it to drop the body? After all, it is only like changing the old coat for a new one. The old one will be given up when the new one is ready.

433. Permanent stay with a saint not essential

Jayantilal: Has any devotee of yours realised God?

Papa: You must ask them. How can Ramdas say? So many are repeating Ram Nam at various places. They do not come and tell Ramdas whether they have realised God or not. Have you yourself been benefited by Ram Nam? Ramdas knows this much that some of them come and tell him they get great joy in repeating Ram Nam.

Jayantilal: If a devotee follows you like a shadow, does he get more benefit than those who stay far away from you?

Papa: They follow Ramdas and give him a lot of trouble. There was a saint in Hubli who, from his own experience, said once that after the calf drinks milk it runs away to play. When hungry it returns to drink milk and again runs away; whereas the bug always sticks on to the udder and instead of drinking milk, drinks blood. Nobody has benefited by the constant company of a saint. No plant grows well under the shade of a big tree. People think that by living with a saint in an ashram, they will realise God. That is not correct. Ashrams have not produced mahatmas; wherever a mahatma stays, around him springs up an ashram.

Though Ramdas visited many institutions during his sadhana period, he never stayed anywhere a long time. Wherever he went, he stayed only a short while, got the benefit of satsang and went away. It was not because he knew that he should not stay long anywhere but he was prompted by God – God seated in his heart. He guided him right. Gurudev had told him that constant repetition of Ram Nam would give him eternal peace, and he could depend upon Him for inspiration from within.

One should rely on the inner guidance. Instead of this, nowadays, people write long letters to their Guru asking for instructions on various points. If the reply is delayed, they question why their letters are not answered. But do they follow the instructions that are given? No, not at all.

You may ask Ramdas whether a sadhaka should not stay with his Guru and progress under his influence just as wild tree is turned into a sandalwood tree by its proximity to the latter.

Jayantilal: If not, what is the benefit of satsang?

Papa: You must, of course, have satsang. The question is whether you should stay permanently with a saint or not.

Bansidharbhai: Papa, all trees in the forest are not turned into sandalwood trees, only a few are.

Papa: That is it. You have given the answer. There are some trees without stamina. They can never become sandalwood trees.

434. Do intense sadhana

7.30 p.m. Papa returned from his evening walk and drive, and had a meal of vegetables and milk. Akbarbhai and his brother Ismailbhai were going by the night train. They came and sat near Papa before taking their leave.

Akbarbhai: We had a good feed here and we are going away to play like the calf after drinking milk. We do not want to be bugs.

Papa: Yes, that is good. Never become bugs. Come back when you want to drink milk. But this may not apply to all. There are some who remain with saints always and never become bugs. That is, of course, very rare. To remain so they must do intense sadhana and retire within themselves in deep meditation. This practice will make them less attached to the physical body of the Guru, with the result that they serve the Guru properly and not become a nuisance. Even when you remain with a saint, you must do sadhana. That is the important thing. People think by merely staying with a saint, they progress. That is a wrong notion.

435. Mataji, an extraordinary case

Bansidharbhai: When the question was asked this afternoon whether any devotee of Papa has realised God, why did Papa not mention Mataji's name?

Papa: He either forgot about it or did not want to mention it. She is so close to Ramdas that he never feels she is separate from him.

S: Mataji's case is different. She was an extraordinary sadhaka and was in a very advanced stage when she came to Papa. She cannot be compared with ordinary devotees.

Papa: Yes, hers was an extraordinary case.