← The Gospel of Swami RamdasHis talks, as recorded by Swami Satchidananda

1953-09-17

Chapter 19

Anandashram, September 17, 1953

167. Gandhiji's Experiments in Brahmacharya

8.15 a.m. Papa and MR Ramaswami were sitting in Papa's room cracking jokes. They were having with them the book ‘My Days with Gandhi’. Papa was referring to some events in Gandhiji's life regarding his experiments in brahmacharya. Papa finally remarked: "How many devotees practise brahmacharya? They write to Ramdas that they are practising brahmacharya, living at home with wife and children. After some time, suddenly Ramdas gets a letter to say that the wife has given birth to a boy or a girl. What do you say to this? So Gandhiji's experiment is not an ordinary one. It is very risky.

MRR: Publishing the correspondence (with Sevakram) relating to this experiment, will open the eyes of many who do not understand Gandhiji.

Papa: Gandhiji's coming out of it unscathed makes the experiment more glorious. To sleep with a grown-up girl in the same bed for nights together, without any thought of sex arising in the mind of either, is a wonderful achievement.

Looking at S, ready to take down the replies, Papa took out the pending letters and was about to start dictation. S reminded him of an article to be dictated for the ‘Sunday Times’.

Papa: Ramdas will dictate it tomorrow. His throat is not well today. He has slight headache also.

S: Then why should Papa answer the letters today unless they are very urgent?

Papa: There is nothing urgent.

Papa then put the letters back in the case and started from the room with his walking-stick, S following. They went down and saw how the work of the septic tank was progressing. From there they went to the kitchen. Mataji was there, with some other women, cutting vegetables. Mataji enquired how Papa's throat was. "It is as bad as yesterday", said Papa. Each one there suggested a remedy for the throat. But Papa did not want to try and said, "Ramdas will have the milk with turmeric added, as yesterday. Nothing else." They also enquired what vegetables should be prepared for him. He gave some suggestions. Then he said, "Now Ramdas has finished his job. Let us go and see Ramchandra Rao."

Coming out of the dining-hall, looking at the cloudy sky, S said, "Papa, clouds are gathering. It might rain today."

Papa: If they pour down some water it is all right. Otherwise there is no fun in their gathering, it will only make the day warmer.

A very old worker of the ashram, named Kanna, was splitting firewood. Papa went very near him. It was Papa's custom to joke always with the old man.

Papa: Kanna, look at the clouds. Will it rain today, or will the clouds scatter away?

Kanna: Yesterday there was a chance of some rain, but today the clouds are not very encouraging.

Papa: Kanna, you must do this. Use your Mantra to get the rain. Indra must be pleased. While you go on splitting firewood, go on repeating the Mantra also to get us rain. Will you do it?

Kanna: Ah – (as if in agreement)

Papa laughed at Kanna's simplicity and left him to carry on with his work.

Dr Kuppuswami was examining CR Rao when Papa entered the room. CR Rao made pranams to Papa, who sat on the chair near his cot.

Dr Kuppuswami: He has not been getting proper sleep. I gave him a pill. Still he was awake from two o'clock.

CR Rao: From two to five I was awake.

Papa: Ah, the best remedy is to repeat Ram Nam.

CR Rao: Neither can I sleep nor repeat Ram Nam.

Papa: If you start repeating Ram Nam you will get sleep.

CR Rao laughed.

Dr Kuppuswami: He must have complete mental and physical rest.

CR Rao: How to have mental rest, tell me.

Papa (to Dr Kuppuswami): Prescribe the sadhana for it.

Dr Kuppuswami: You should not tax your brain nor entertain worrying thoughts.

CR Rao: Light reading will be all right, I hope.

Dr Kuppuswami: Light reading is all right.

Papa: What do you mean by light reading?

Dr Kuppuswami: Anything that does not cause strain is light reading.

After a few minutes' talk on several topics, Papa returned to his room.

168. He Cures Himself

5.30 p.m. Papa was again in CR Rao's room. S went there with a bottle of homoeopathic medicine to treat Papa for bad throat.

S: How does Papa feel about the throat? Is it any better?

Papa: Yes, It is slightly better. There is pain while swallowing the saliva, but not while talking. It was worse this morning.

S: So Gopal's medicine has done the trick.

Papa: Ramdas took the turmeric milk, applied a paste externally and also took the homoeo medicine sent by Gopal.

CR Rao: Let us give credit to all the three.

Papa: Very impartial. You have left God out of the picture!

S: God in the form of turmeric milk, paste and homoeo medicine has helped the cure. Is it not so, Papa? Then God is not left out at all.

Papa (laughing): That is the vedantic view. So God will not be angry because we have left Him out. He has cured Himself in the form of medicine, milk and turmeric.

The weather was so cloudy that it appeared as if it would rain.

Papa (looking out): It will be nice if it rains. (After a pause) No. Let us not ask for anything. Let God do as He wills. If we get rain, the crops in the Vidyalaya compound fields will rot and if we do not get rain, the crops in the wet fields will all die. So let Him do as He thinks best. If it rains, it must be slow drizzling for two or three hours. That will not cause damage, but at the same time it will help the other fields.

S: Then if we are asking God for rain, we must specify the conditions.

Papa: We have to say that He might give rain over the wet fields and not over the Vidyalaya compound fields. That will be nice. (Laughter).

The post was brought and Papa got busy reading the letters.

September 18, 1953

169. Lives of Mahatmas must be presented in toto.

8 a.m. Papa was sitting in the bhajan-hall, reading the book ‘My Days with Gandhi’. Mataji was writing Ram Nam sitting in front of him. Papa was also telling her some important incidents from Gandhiji's life. S entered the hall and stood by the side of Papa.

Later, Mataji and S went to the kitchen for breakfast. S sat opposite to Mataji.

Mataji: When we read about mahatmas first, we are given a picture of their lofty ideals and in general everything of their bright side. But gradually later on, through some other books or through authentic but unpublished reports, many things relating to the other side, which their closest followers wanted to hide, come out. Hiding such things is not possible. They all come out some day or other. And that will cause great disturbance in the minds of their staunch followers, because they would never have expected such things of those whom they revered. To avoid this, a clear picture ought to be given from the very beginning without any reservation. Then the readers will clearly understand how things are and there will be no room for later disappointment. In Gandhiji's case, do you know what was happening? He started writing about himself when he was on the path. While on the path, one gets varied experiences which go on changing as one progresses.

S: Gandhiji had made some statements, and years later he had changed his opinion. When asked why he did so, he replied that when he made the first statement he found that, that was the right thing, as when he made the later statement.

Mataji: It is because the statements were made while on the path. He might admit that his later experience proved his earlier ones wrong. On this point, what an amount of quarrel I had with Papa! There were terrible quarrels.

S: On what point?

Mataji: Papa used to say that people who have attained such and such a state (say God-realisation) will not do certain things. I questioned why we should say that they would not do certain things. When they have gone above dharma and adharma, why should they be limited to do only certain things? Papa never agreed, in those days, with my views. But now he says that I am right, and when he writes he is expressing my view. By not fully explaining things, we are doing great injustice to admirers and followers. Of course, mahatmas are not affected in any way. They have gone beyond this stage. But a sadhaka has to discriminate and avoid persons and things likely to hamper his progress.

170. Papa's Princely Life, the Why and Wherefore

After breakfast, S hurried up to Papa's room. Papa was engrossed in talk with MR Ramaswami, who was sitting by his side. S sat in front of Papa quietly. Their conversation was uninterrupted. S heard the following:

Papa: The present life of Ramdas is a fulfilment of his sadhana life.

MRR: What do you mean by fulfilment? Is it the external life that you refer to?

Papa: No. He is now enjoying without any sadhana or effort that very thing which was attained by sadhana and strict discipline and later on maintained by sadhana. Now he is absolutely free from all sadhanas’, but at the same time he enjoys the supreme bliss.

MRR: Is Papa referring to the external life?

Papa: No, the external life makes no difference in the internal state. The inner joy is not conditioned by the external comforts or their lack.

MRR: Papa's present life, as far as the externals are concerned, has no comparison with a common man's life. It is definitely an aristocrat's life. Does Papa think that it is in the best interests of the devotees?

Papa: Definitely yes. Ramdas is setting an example to the world that one can live in the world, apparently involved in everything, but absolutely detached. Ramdas now does not crave for luxurious things but he accepts whatever is given to him.

MRR: Is Papa accepting everything in the interests of all?

Papa: You see, when Ramdas was a sadhaka he was feeling that he was not leading the real life. Then he was rejecting anything that would stand in the way of his meditation. He would not stay in houses. He would sleep only on rough ground. But very few people ran after him then. Now he is not even wearing ochre clothes. He lives just like an ordinary man. Still why do people crowd round him in thousands? As Ramdas told you, he had known that the life of complete external renunciation was not everything. Then it was that he happened to meet Sri Siddharudha Swamiji. Ramdas found that he was receiving presents of silk and other costly garments and would wear them. He permitted a gold crown adorn his head and allowed worship by all. In the early days he was a very great tyagi. Seeing his later life, people criticised him. But, though in the midst of luxury, Ramdas noticed, he was really living on a different plane. Another was Maharshi (Ramana). He was an out and out tyagi – sitting in a small hut with only a loin-cloth on.

MRR: But in his last days his ashram also had grown very big.

Papa: Same thing has happened here. We never wanted an ashram to come up. We wanted a small place to live in and take the simplest food. In the early days of the ashram we were living on mere kanji water, that too prepared and served in earthen pots. For sleeping there was one room and the open hall. It was the simplest life. When visitors came here, once it rained so heavily that the water dashed from all sides on the hall; everyone was drenched and wanted to take shelter in a corner. But there was no corner anywhere. There was only a room. All rushed inside. How many could be accommodated? So, as and when we found it necessary, we had more buildings built. Visitors used to come here with their children. They used to shout in the morning for milk. Milk was not available here. It had to come from Kanhangad and it reached here only by 9 o'clock. We thought of having a cow. Now we have a big go-shala. It is all for the convenience of the visitors only.

As far as Ramdas was concerned, he was living the simplest life in the ashram, sitting and sleeping on the floor. But he took ill in 1938 and after that some friends suggested that Ramdas should have a chair. A cot also came. Then Mataji, thinking that this body had suffered a lot and therefore should now be properly looked after, got a quilt made. Next came the mosquito trouble, and the mosquito net. Then special food. So, one after another, comforts increased. Now we have this room with the latest type of bathroom and water-closet.

But Ramdas is prepared to live anywhere in any condition. When we went to Sholapur (S knows. He was with us.) at a place called Angar, we had to stay in a small house, no better than a hut, which was all damp. There was no furniture except an old cot. Ramdas got fever there. His body cannot stand such hard conditions now. In other places also there were only small houses with the barest conveniences. Ramdas was quite happy there too. Of course he lives more with rich people in big houses now, while on tour. If anybody were to ask, Ramdas has got his answer for that also.

After Mataji came in contact with Ramdas, she has changed his life entirely. Otherwise, this ashram would not have come up. He would have been sleeping on the floor anywhere and eating anything that was offered. Mataji's care has made his life what it is. Ramdas tells her often: 'In what a condition Ramdas was and in what have you put him now?’ She replies, “Your body has suffered enough. Why should you not have all comforts now. Show the world how to lead a detached life in it”.

MRR: If, by any chance, the whole ashram is reduced to the old state of only a single room, how would Papa feel about it?

Papa: Oh! Ramdas would run to the maidan and dance in ecstasy. You know what he did when the weaving shed caught fire. He was simply dancing with joy. The construction work of the present ashram was going on. A temporary shed was built to store timber. Thousands of rupees worth of timber was stacked in it. Ramdas was then staying at TBS Rao's house. From there he saw a big fire on the hill where the new ashram was being built. He called all in the house, showed them the beautiful scene and said, "See how our timber shed is burning. Now, only the leaf mats are on fire. In a few minutes the timber will catch fire and it will be a more enjoyable scene." But the fire was not in the shed. It was the dry grass burning on the hill behind the shed, though it looked as if the shed was on fire.

So Ramdas will dance with joy even if everything in the ashram is reduced to ashes. But Mataji might feel. She gets attached to things that are done here. She does not want to start anything new but whatever has already been started, she says, must be looked after properly and the best use derived from it. Finally she will reconcile herself thus: "Papa says that everything happens for the best. So this also must be for the best” and will give up worry... Now Ramdas must attend to some letters.

MRR got up and left the room.

Papa (to S): We have spent all the time in talking. Ramdas has to go down. He has to postpone dictating the article for the ‘Sunday Times’. The letters, of course, can wait. You may write a letter on behalf of Ramdas to the ‘Sunday Times’ informing them that Ramdas will be sending an article within the next four or five days.

An hour later, Papa was with CR Rao in his room. He enquired about his health and sat on the chair.

Papa: All this morning the talk was why Ramdas is leading a princely life.

He explained to him in brief the talk with MRR, and said, 'So Ramdas’ life is like that of a prince now.’

CR Rao: Who knows? It may be still better in course of time. But people do ask me why Papa should spend so much money on so-called luxuries, and travel in planes. They even ask why Papa should show more love and get so much attached to Ramkishor.

Papa: You know how Ramdas feels? He is now a million times happier within than during his days of sannyas. (Saying this he looked at CR Rao's eyes steadily for a few seconds). One million times happier! Can anybody imagine it? They see only Ramdas moving about here and there taking interest in things as anybody else and living with people as others do. How detached he is, nobody knows.

S: What others say is natural. Nobody can understand Papa's inner state of joy. It is for Papa to experience. Others look on and understand only the external life and its attachments. That is why, to understand Papa is very hard. Papa's life and experience as narrated in ‘In Quest of God’ are different from those narrated in ‘In the Vision of God’. After that it has changed considerably. So Papa must write a third book about his present state, that is, the fulfilment.

It was past ten and time for Papa's shave and bath. Papa got up and left with S for this room.

171. Mataji kind even to a Detractor

9.30 p.m. It was time for Papa to go to bed. Gopal was preparing the bed in Papa's room. Lakshmi Narasimhiah was standing near Papa. Suddenly a person clad in trousers and a bush coat came like a flash and fell at Papa's feet, in dandawat namaskar. He was lying flat on the ground with his head at Papa's feet, for a couple of minutes. Nobody in the room could recognise the person. He got up and again made namaskar. When he got up they all knew that he was a friend from Bangalore named Srinivasa Iyengar. When he stood up after the second namaskar, Papa, looking at his face direct with his piercing look, asked him, "Where are you coming from?"

Iyenger: I am coming from Bangalore.

Papa: What are you doing there?

Iyengar: Nothing.

Papa: What have you come here for?

Iyengar: I have come with a purpose, a definite purpose. I have come to stay here permanently doing sadhana.

Papa: Certainly not. Sadhana you have to do at home. This is not the place for you. All right, Ramdas will talk to you later. Now go and have something to eat.

He was then taken by CR Rao to the kitchen. In a few minutes Mataji came in.

Papa (to Mataji): Did you see him, who came from Bangalore?

Mataji: Yes, he has gone for meal.

Papa: Do you know what he has come for? He says he wants to stay here doing sadhana. Do you know who this man is? He is the one who wrote the anonymous letter about Swami C.

Mataji (to Gopal): Has he brought any bed or clothing with him?

Gopal: No, he has come only with what he is wearing!

Mataji: Then, don't forget to bring tomorrow two dhotis for him, and two more for Lakshmi Narasimhiah who could not find his clothes after he gave them for washing.

Papa: Gopal, bring only one for this man. He puts on trousers, English fashion. Don't know if he will wear dhoti. So, give him first one, and if he uses that, he can be given another.

Mataji: When he comes back from kitchen, take him to HV Rao's house and give him also a pillow and a bedsheet.